Buffers for lower pH

[ashhhh]

this is like a star wars saga!<
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"If anything, maybe i can teach you something. "<
>     Maybe one day but not today...<
>I have gained some knowledge tonight bobo. But not about chemistry.    <
>P-E-A-T<
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>cya<
> Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 12/6/05 1:16<
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[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Can the chemists among us confirm or deny something for me?  I keep Discus and use Hydrochloric to lower Ph, even though my KH out of the tap is between 1 and 2 it stays pretty stable so I don''t buffer the water.<
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>I was told or read that it is a waste of time buffering water with say Bi carb and then
inging the Ph down because in order to lower Ph the acid has to eat away at the buffer
inging you back to square one.<
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>Is this right or what?<
>MAC

Yes Mac. I would consider that a waste of time. The reason you gave is good enough. with PH,KH and GH, as you know its hard to affect one and not the other.<
> Acid buffers arent as straightforward as bobo is being taught they are. Hence the fact we still use peat etc... and not a chemical which will "lock" your ph at a low level, which doesnt even exist....yet. Which is why bobo is not having the success he would like.<
>Bobo is going to invent it for us though  <
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>Cheers... Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 12/6/05 9:41<
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HTML Comments are not allowed Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 12/6/05 15:14<
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[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Thanks for the confirmation.<
>MAC

[Alan Caboolture]

Goodness me     Lets get down to a level that Aquarium keepers in general can understand.  Not spout off in terms that only a few of us science graduates understand.<
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>To keep a low ph tank you need to replicate nature. It is pointless trying to lower your pH if the substrate and rocks or decorations are basic (alkaline).   They just counteract every "pH down" product you use.<
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>Use neutral or acidic gravel,,,,,,,,coffs harbour pebbles (Golden gravel), Pine rivers quartz gravel or sieved and graded decomposed granite.   Or you can go even more expensive and use garnet etc...  My recommendation is Coffs,,,,$15 or there abouts from the local stone and gravel merchant for a 20kg bag.  Ten times that for "Golden Gravel" from the LFS (same thing).<
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>Check all the rocks and decor !!!!!  Those nice holey rocks are usually limestone (alkaline) chuck them.<
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>Use logs and bog wood for decor, they help lower pH.<
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>Most all acid water is soft (not always the case, but for our applications lets assume this).   Therefore use a commercial water softener or RO unit on your water supply if you are in a hard, alkaline water region.<
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>Horticultural peat is acid as hell and is available from plant stores and nurseries in small packs or bales.   Boil a couple of handfuls in  pot (but don''t tell the wife), cool and strain off. Then nick a pair of her pantyhose.   Cut off the end of the hose and pack with the boiled peat, knot it, then put this in your filter system somewhere.<
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>Hey !!! an all natural low pH system.  No additives.<
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>Alan.<
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>PS. and I''m not telling those other geeks how many letters behind my name.  . They will learn with maturity. When life gives you lemons ask for a bottle of tequila & salt.<
>The only danger I find in life is to take too many precautions. Some people walk in the rain, others just get wet.<
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Gecko if you have a problem with ''what im being taught'' then maybe you should take it up with the school of physical sciences at QUT. I am a full time industrial chemistry student, i know what I am talking about. <
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>You say there is nothing which will ''lock in pH'' and mock me saying i will invent it. Well you know every la
atory session we use buffers (which are solutions which ''lock in'' a desired pH value). Its an essential part of many of our experiments, i dont know how you can deny that buffers exist. <
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>Even if you go to your local fish store, they sell acid buffers. Do you think they would still be on the market if they didnt work?<
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>Having said this, buffers do not ''lock in'' the pH indefinatly, but basically stop it from fluctuating to any significant extent, which is - basically locking in your desired pH. <
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>And you are right in that in an aquarium situation it is advanced, because there are so many other biological and chemical processes happening which could affect the equili
ium of your buffer. For example, i beleive my phosphate buffer is not working well because i am getting algea blooms which feed off the phosphate, shifting the equili
ium. Its only a theory though. Or maybe my gravel is releasing carbonates. <
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>Peat is very good for loweing pH and creating specific water conditions, but it wont buffer your water. This means that if it is heavy planted the respiration and photosynthesis of your plants cold make a SLIGHT ph shift over a 24 hour period(there are many other things which could affect ph as well: ie a dodgy water change). If a buffer is used in conjuction with peat, then there should be no shift until the buffer is used up.<
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>I think the key to good water chemistry is knowing the BASIC concepts of chemistry, and trying to work them into a complicated system (the aquarium) to keep your pH and specific ions at the desired level. Perhaps this is what gecko means by advanced.  

Alan after reading your poist it made me more interested in the gravel. Does most gravel make the water alkaline? I got this black gravel, and i did a test on it and it seems to have made demineralised water more alkaline.  

[Bristlenosenut]

You two sound like a married couple,  both of you are talking another language to the rest of the forum. <
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>Just use bloody PEAT. PLAIN & SIMPLE  

[here fishie fishie]

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>Quote:Even if you go to your local fish store, they sell acid buffers. Do you think they would still be on the market if they didnt work?  <
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>Quote:Having said this, buffers do not ''lock in'' the pH indefinatly, but basically stop it from fluctuating to any significant extent, which is - basically locking in your desired pH. <
>I will beg to differ on that. <
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>Quote:My recommendation is Coffs,,,,$15 or there abouts from the local stone and gravel merchant for a 20kg bag. Ten times that for "Golden Gravel" from the LFS (same thing).<
>Really, Coffs for sale for $25 for 20kg at one lfs on the Goold Coast.<
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>Finally,<
>Quote:You two sound like a married couple, both of you are talking another language to the rest of the forum. <
>Just use bloody PEAT. PLAIN & SIMPLE<
>Couldn''t have said it better. <
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>Frenchy <
> "A house full of people is a house full of different points of view"<
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I dont want to use peat to lower pH. I dont want to run peat through through my water everytime before i have to do a water change. Its much easier i think, to add a certain ammount of hydrochloric acid. <
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>In addition, there could be anything in garden peat. Just because something is ''natural'' doesnt mean its good. If i ever use peat, i will be careful and experiment with it first. How do you know that all the humic acids are good for your fish? How do you know how much is too much? These are the things i would like to research before i put it in my fish tank. <
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>Im not saying peat is bad, but if i ever use it, I will be boiling it for the tea, to make my own black water extract.<
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[Sigmaphile]

Bobo,<
>I guess I an confused like everyone else.<
>You ask VERY simple questions then get in to basic and advanced chemistry debates and then seem to attack and suggestions given to you by experienced fish keepers.<
>Do you actually want and answer or was this post just to cater to your ego and allow you to sprout all kinds of information that is totally useless to the average fish keeper????<
>Anytime anyone has asked about lowering pH the usual reply is "use peat in the filter/tank".<
>I don''t think anyone on here currently can, or will wanto anymore, answer your questions.<
> Phil<
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>Beaudesert<
>debphil@ozemail.com.au<
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>&quot;I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.&quot;<
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Well im sorry sigmaphile, but simple as my question was, simple answers are not what im looking for. I could have told myself that PEAT and mangrove roots lowers pH. You dont need to be an experienced fishkeep to know that. <
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>The main thing i wanted to know, was if anyone has used sulfate buffers, or any other salts/ chemicals to buffer soft acid water, and their experiences. <
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>And yes, i enjoy debating and discussing any aspect of water chemistry because it is one of my passions. Most of this thread is a  debate between gecko and I. Whether or not my ego is involved is irrelevant. The average fishkeeper probably doesnt worry about the water chemistry as much as i do, so if this information is totally useless to you, disregard it. No one is forcing you to read it. I dont even know why you had to comment.<
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>Back on topic: <
>I would like to compare using peat to condition acidic water, as opposed to using other chemicals to lower, buffer and add extracts.<
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>I think the main advantage of peat, is that it lowers the pH, keeps it lowered, and adds humic acid extracts to the water.<
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>I think the main disadvantages are it is harder to control different aspects of your water using peat. For example:<
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>-What if the right ammount of peat to change to correct pH darkens your water too much?<
>-Will peat remove calcium hardness?<
>-What if the right ammount of peat used to soften carbonate hardness to the correct level, leaves you with the wrong pH?<
>-What if peat is not a strong enough acid to remove carbonate hardness in a prepared water change, which could lead to your water rising in pH over a long period?<
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>This is why i have an aversion to peat. I would be glad for anyone to discuss their experiences using peat and how these variables are controlled. <
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>The way i see it, it is easier to drop the pH with acid, run it through ion exchange resin if required, buffer it, then add blackwater extract. That way all variables are controlled, and nothing is going to change (unless your gravel releases carbonoates like mine   ) Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 15/6/05 0:57<
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[here fishie fishie]

Use phosphoric acid. test out on a 20 litre bucket to get ph to say 6. You can then make yourself a solution or whatver......You want the carbonate still to be around 3. If less than 3 use sodium bicarbonate to raise the carbonate hardness. You need this carbonate hardness for the nitrifying bacteria to do there job properly.<
>Peat moss is fine if you get a high quality one, eg canadian. It will keep ph at 6 to 6.5. But you also have to watch the carbontes.<
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>The trouble with Acid is an overdose of this will be worse for your fish than an overdose of peat.<
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>Frenchy   "A house full of people is a house full of different points of view"<
>Edited by: here fishie fishie at: 15/6/05 7:20<
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