Help me please!!!

[efc]

Hey i really need some help. I have a tank full of frontosa fry (4cm) and they are starting to contract a disease of some sort that involves them heavy breathing then slowly passing away. I have some comps in with them and they are fine. This is the second batch that has contracted this mystry bug. WHAT SHOULD I TREAT THEM FOR?????
I have tried uping the heater and adding salt along with a 50% water change. Should i clean the cannister filter? What else can i do?

Thanks in advance!!!

[Monty]

Not sure mate.. But good luck... :?

[Savage_roo]

Ok how hot is the water ? don't make it too hot nothing over 35c
are their gills red or dark it might be gill worm or some kind of parersit
turn up the air in the tank
and make shore you check for nitrats and the ph
and how long has the tank been set up for?
or you can go to your lfs and pick their brains
 hop any of this helps

[bryce2003]

You could stop doing such big water changes. The fish are stressed enough as they are without adding "new" water to the mix. Try doing 10-25% water changes more fresquently rather than big water changes less frequently, eg. 10% water changes daily, 25% every 3 days etc. Add more air into the tank. Make 100% sure they aren't being harrassed etc. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Bryce.

[DeagonTheo]

I doubt very much that its a disease, more likely water conditions.
I'd say the most likely culprits could be Nitrates or Ammonia, at any rate I would check all the conditions.
Do you do water changes regularly, like Bryce said not 50%, but more like 20-30%.
I have bred both, and kept them in the same tanks and find Comps and Fronnies both to be very hardy, but coming from Lake Tanganyika, a higher PH is helpfull, as is clean water.
Regular water changes with fry are a must. When doing water changes are you using aged water or straight from the tap with neutraliser. If you are going the neutraliser way, I would stop that and get a drum and use aged water.
If you are doing all the above and still losing fish, I'm at a loss to know whats wrong.
Theo

[mickvick]

I had that exact problem a couple of years back with Fronnie fry at around that same size, maybe a few cm's larger and it too only affected the Fronts. Had the water parameters etc tested professionally with no problems.

I eventually used Metronidazole which saved the last 2 or 3, pity about the 13 or so that died before them.

Michael

[here fishie fishie]

The fronnies that are breathing heavy, are they hanging at the top of the tank or the bottom?
If they are hanging at the top of the tank, its lack of oxygen, to hot a water temp, or poor surface agitation.

If bottom 1/2 of the tank, poisioning/parisite or disease, eg; nitrites,ammonia, chlorine, big difference in ph, fly spray....

ps; Tangy's don't like water over 30 degrees or big water changes.

Frenchy :D

[cookiemuncher]

yeah guys we sort of need to know more information before we know whats going on?


as herefishiefisie said top or bottom can mean 2 diff things?


Also Mick where did you get your water professionally tested?

[efc]

Hey, they stay to the very bottom of the tank, hugging the substrate very lethargic! nThey have more then enough air, actually overkill comparted to any tank i have ever seen.
the fronts are the only effected thus rulling out ammonia, nitrite and nitrate ( i have had the water tested so this is an informed conclusion).
Tank temp is 28C and goes no higher.
They have gone almost 6 months without a single health complaint. All this time weekly 50% water changes buffered with tanganyikan buffer and conditioned with prime.

MickV where did you purchase Metronidazole from??

[here fishie fishie]

Hanging out down the bottom rules out lack of oxygen in the water.

Metro, from the vet or a LFS with good contacts. Can be a hard drug to get hold of. I know of one LFS down my way, maybe a bit far to travel.
Its a bit hard to throw drugs at fish, when the cause is unknown too.

Have a read of this site.
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/behavioral_disorders.html
see if that helps.

As stated earlier if fish are breathing heavy, look do the gills look like?
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/gill_disorders.html

As for poisoning,(Ammonia, chlorine, ph variances) good to see water is tested. But because some fish die & some don't, especially when one species is dieing, some are hardier than others.

Could be genetic defects too.(doubt)
I have asked on another forum see what they come up with. Have you tried the ACE forum?

Frenchy :D

[DeagonTheo]

You say the fish have been okay for 6 months, also that they are 4cm, this is a bit small for Fronnies at that age and should be hitting 6cm plus. This again leads to a Nitrate problem or overcrowding, but you say you do a weekly 50% change so cant be that.

What size growout tank are they in, I've just got this feeling they are crowded, judging by their behaviour and growth rate.

Is there a reason you keep the water at 28, if you can, drop the temp down to 25 or even less, from experience, Fronnies dont like hot water.

I still dont think its a disease, I cant see for the life of me why the Comps wouldnt get it.
Theo

[efc]

there in a 4x2x2 but over crowding is very possible as there are 40 fronts and 40 comps all at 4cm. I do the large water changes in order to compensate for the lack of room. it has been a tried and tested idea from Jack Watley

[DeagonTheo]

While 80 fry in a 4*2*2 doesnt seem like a lot, as they get bigger the amount of feeding needed and the resultant waste can virtually turn water into a soup mix. The amount of filtration needed is huge.

I would say almost certainly, the cause of your problem is overcrowding and overheating. This still doesnt have to be a major problem as long as you keep up the water changes, [b:b4a2847cec]but use aged water [/b:b4a2847cec]maybe twice a week or every 5 or 6 days.

Also look at your filtration maybe you need a bigger filter. In any case those Fronnies should be bigger than that, so that is a water problem.
Theo
PS: Maybe Jack Watley was breeding Guppies

[here fishie fishie]

How are the fronnies going?

[quote:b529966b05]
Maybe Jack Watley was breeding Guppies [/quote:b529966b05] more than likely discus, I know of a particular guy who does 50% water changes, more than weekly too, heavy feeding with young discus.....but water is aged first for stability.

I got this reply in 3 parts from where I asked, reply is from a fronnie breeder too.
[quote:b529966b05]
hardness of water pretty important and ph 8.2-8.4.
sometimes food can be a problem,keep away from pellet till bigger.
i'd suggest bring temp down slowly and can the air,only need a small bubble filter,plodding away slowly. and find out what he is feeding.
frontosa's don't like big waterchanges neither. i w/c 6-2-2 once a month,1/3. fry once a week,never add buffer's as they don't break down.
if the tank is set up right you don't need them. calcite/arganite substrate with limestone or dolimite rock,magnesium important to these fishies.
and only need to feed fry twice aday[flake morning/brineshrimp night].
temp to high,to much air,food,water to soft[maybe] stressed front's will be dark in colour,almost black,to much food water will go soft quick,less food and smaller waterchanges/stop buffing tank as he will be poisoning the fry,6mths of buffing everyweek will be building up toxin's,set tank up right. desease i don't think so.

back again,
tell guy to check level's calcium/magnesium. all that buffering is probably the problem, 3-1 ratio. magnesium,potassium,sodium,calcium all good at right levels.
but toxic if not. better to do it naturally.also if filter is old why use prime.
"toxic overload"even 50% w/c will leave level's of these in the tank,then he treats tank again,go higher and so on and so on, just taken 6mths to reach overload.comp's might be fine now/but they could also have a higher tolerence to it.
i have used african cichlid conditioner/once or twice a year,but only when i am getting tiny air-bubbles on edge of glass[protein]water getting abit soft.
also scrubbing algae off rock's works just as good,letting the rocks add the nutrients the tank needs[scrub-off 1yr]
frontosa's are so hardy,never lost one[touch-wood] have kulled a couple through not being quite right.[fry that is] and i did it humanly/quick.

surprised no one asked guy what substrate he was running,and no one picked up on the additives he is adding to his tank every waterchange he does,also this is the second time this has happened to him(around the 6mth mark) toxic overload. magnesium overload along with everything else,these poor fish are being poisoned slowly,that's why they are so small. at six months old my fry are about 2inch. [/quote:b529966b05]

Hope this helps

Frenchy :D