WHITE CRANE!!!!!!!

[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Admin:  Please move this post to where it's supposed to go, as I said to Dean when old age sets in we get a bit confused lmao.

Hi Gasnitro,

I'm a bit behind the times with this post as I don't get here often but just to set the record straight.  There are many forms of Astaxanthin in commercial fish foods but the vast majority of them are synthetic forms that are used as opposed to natural ones such as NatuRose.  NatuRose is a brand name owned by Cyanotech in Hawaii, which I'm sure you are aware as you have posted information from their web site, but  NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish.  The research coming out of the states regarding this product continues to confirm Cyanotechs comments that it is a wonderful addition to any fish diet.

I have no doubt that you can buy food products containing Astaxanthin but I seriously doubt they are NatuRose, I may be wrong.

I was interested because our company owns the Australian and New Zealand rights to NatuRose and it is one of the main points of difference to our flake and pellet food, Breeders Blend.  I do know it is available from resellers in the states but please be aware that NatuRose is a product that requires an import permit. 

As I am not a sponsor here I may get my wrist slapped for this but anyone that wants to try NatuRose Ben at AOA stocks our full range of products, you won't be disappointed.
Cheers
MAC

[braddo]

Personally I think there is a bit more than just astax in WC hence the reason I won't use it. Just a quick did you know that the photosynthetic bacteria is actually the blue green algae and this if eaten by fish is toxic hence the reason why when you get an outbreak of it in your tank algae eaters no matter what type will not eat it.

[Dead Fish Floating]

Thats just silly mate!!
Blue green algaes are a HUGE group of diverse... um things.
Think of them like mushrooms
some are toxic and others a edible.
Spirulina for example is a blue green algae or photosynthetic bacteria or whatever ya want to call it,
and it's the mother of all foods.
Our immortal ancestor, THE ORIGINAL FOOD
the thing that made our air breathable
and pretty much created food chains!!!

THE BEST FOOD ON THE PLANET
hey just ask NASA!
So ya....  lotta algaes mate
and really very very few are dangerous to humans....
Altho the red tide is a warranted scary one.
God help us if that thing ever raids our bays.

I am quite sure that if ya grabbed a cheap protien pellet
and coated it with a bit of astax (or synthetic form of)
you would have a whitecrane pellet.

So you people are seriously trying to tell me that
your naturose astax isn't colouring female african cichlids?
Just seems strange is all
???

[Dead Fish Floating]

vast majority of them are synthetic forms that are used as opposed to natural ones such as NatuRose

Can you just explain what natural is here?
It's a vat of bacteria/algae yea?

but  NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish. 

standard astax yea

I do know it is available from resellers in the states but please be aware that NatuRose is a product that requires an import permit.

It's a strange one, but ya if you can get in (then sell quickly) enuf to make it worth a permit, then it's worth it. Laws are different regarding for human and animal use too. Easier to buy a few sacks of ridley salmon pellets than a bottle of tanning pills over here.

Any chance ya can get us some info on whats going on with elongated anal fins in female dimorphic african cichlids when fed a diet high in astax MAC? Maybe pass it up the chain and see what comes back.  :)

[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Can you just explain what natural is here?
It's a vat of bacteria/algae yea?

Natural as in grown as opposed to coming out of a science lab.  Cyanotech grow Haematococcus Pluvialis in very large outdoor lakes.  Quote from their web site "NatuRose Natural Astaxanthin has been carefully formulated into a fine, free flowing dark red powder and is used as a pigment, nutrition source and to improve the health of aquatic animals, birds, horses, pigs and companion animals."

but  NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish. 
standard astax yea

Tell me, what's your idea of standard Astaxanthin?  To answer you, no it's not, it's much more than a colour enhancer.

It's a strange one, but ya if you can get in (then sell quickly) enuf to make it worth a permit, then it's worth it. Laws are different regarding for human and animal use too. Easier to buy a few sacks of ridley salmon pellets than a bottle of tanning pills over here.

Yes, the laws are different.  Ridley's Salmon pellets are fine I suppose depending on how well you want to feed your fish.  Not my idea idea of a well balanced diet but that's just my personal opinion.

Any chance ya can get us some info on whats going on with elongated anal fins in female dimorphic african cichlids when fed a diet high in astax MAC? Maybe pass it up the chain and see what comes back.  :)

I know absolutely nothing about Africans mate, Discus are my bag but the first question I'd be asking is what form of Astaxanthin is being fed to them?  What amount of Astaxanthin in a diet do you consider high and how much astaxanthin was fed to the fish that ended up with elongated fins?  Our food contains 3gms of NatuRose per kilo of food which is considered the amount to use if you're feeding the food as part of a daily rotational feeding program.   Personally, I can't see Astaxanthin (natural not synthetic) on its own creating abnormalities/deformaties in fish.  I've fed Discus culls 20 times the recommended amount of NatuRose and it didn't produce abnormalities although you did need sunglasses on to look at 'em, very brightly coloured.
MAC

[braddo]

ACtually mate you better do a bit more research the spirulina your talking about is  a phytoplankton which is made up of plant based substances. And is high in proteins and other esssential compounds. This is a form cyanobacterium which works in a similar way to photosynthetic bacteria but needs both oxygen and light to flourish. The blue green algae that is toxic does not need oxygen and is found in anaerobic conditions which generally have pollutants. Eg sections of large fish tanks without adequate filtration or water movement, lakes and human water supplies. It also forms a blanket over all surfaces of the tank. Also Spirulina is one of the only forms of these cyanobacteria that is safe for animal consumption and is no longer known as a blue green algae for this reason. The blue green algaes are the toxic ones. These have been linked to human and animal deaths and have been known to wipe out lakes of fish. So as you can know see my statement was not as silly as you thought.

[braddo]

By the way Spirulina contains chloryphyl were the toxic blue green algaes do not. Also I do not believe in these being the first things that made our air breathable for that to be true they would have to have been the only life on earth and there fore you would have to believe in evolution sorry I am a big believer in creation so you can say I am a christian but that is another debate.

[fishless]

Wow ;D , this is a great forum topic to start a debate. This is what forums are for, so people can express their opinions and hopefully give some good knowledge on the subject.i have read all of the replies on this subject,and have made my mind up.No white crane FOR MY FISH. cheers from fishless.

[Dead Fish Floating]

Braddo mate,
Look when oxygen producing life ( Fossil traces of this cyanobacteria from around 3.8 billion years ago in WA called Stromatolite back this up) first came around and started creating oxygen.....  it wiped out 99.99% of all life on the planet. This new oxygen stuff BURNED the life that had evolved at that point to bits.
Those that survived the oxygen spike went on to evolve others. Spirulina like organisms was one of the very few species to survive this and as such pretty much were the base for the foodchains we have now.
spiru is a bloody primitive species, and eaten by both modern plants and animals.
It is very simple. But when it first bloomed, it did so on a scale that changed the very atmosphere gas make up.
Creationists are savages in this day, sorry.  If ya want to get really fussy I'd say some sort of panspermia event is the trigger behind it all, but as O2 breathers spirulina is as good an acestor as any to pick.


As to actually properly classifieing one of the most obscure and confusing groups of life on the planet......  you would be surprised how little it matters to me. Only going to all change again as we learn more. I'll cram before the next exam and get them right. But there are many many blue green algaes that cause no harm. I drink them all the time. Or just take pics of them thru da scope if I'm feeling ghandi on the day. The problem species that cause such drama are very much in the minority. But variety is the theme and different animals feed on different species. SPiru is interesting because anything can eat it.

As to the blue greens not containing chloroplasts or phyl or whatever.
Once again stop being silly! The 'green' bit of the name is a give away methinks, or cyan if ya wanna be fussy.
Either way hit hit up wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_green_algae or algae base if you need to comfirm what you surely already know.

Braddo mate,
Astax has VERY different reactions on discus than it does on african cichlids. As to the salmon riddley food, it was an example. I would rather mix my own foods and decide on ratio's. And my point here is that if I get pure astax, mix up a good amount with some fish food say your 60g/kg (3ppm X 20) and feed my tank of assorted female peacocks, I recon that given 2 weeks on that diet those females are gonna be dam pretty.

Quote
but  NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish. 
standard astax yea


Tell me, what's your idea of standard Astaxanthin?  To answer you, no it's not, it's much more than a colour enhancer.

You missread me.
I realise astax has other propertys than just increasing colour, but astax is astax. It's like saying only orange flavoured vit C tablets are good, where as lemon flavoured ones are.........
Oh wait your talking about your whole protien pellets ingredients?


Fishless, glad ya had a good read.
It's a nice topic to see.......
Astax is like fish TB to most in the industry
Public never needs to know........
;D

[braddo]

Ah once again make sure you are talking to the right person on the right debate it was MAC with the astax.
I respect your opinion on us creationalist but even the farther of evolution admitted he was wrong about it on his death bed. As for the earth being 3.8billion years old carbon dating has also been proven to 99% of the time being at error. Can i also say that I would rather know where I am going when I die by beleiving what I beleive than something that was a theory made up by a man that went back on this theaory when it truly mattered.
I beleive also that every is allowed to have their own beliefs and I am not trying to put mine down anyones throat. Oh and by the way I do find your avatar offense using the christian emblem of the fish with darwin in it but that is your right to have it and I can ignore it. And to finish I did use a lot of different references to come up with my information on the spirulina. The green colour to blue green algae is a product of waste produced by a reaction within its cells not chlorophyl. Because I have a different opinion and knowledge o these things don't make me silly as you put it but makes you ignorant for calling me that because I have different opinions.

[braddo]

Oh and the savages comment wouldn't it be more of a savage to believe that we were originally evolved from apes or even further back in your beliefs bacteria or the primedial ooze. I too was once a believer in evolution until I seen what was true.

[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Hi DFF,

It was MAC that made half those statements about Asta not Braddo mate.  A couple of points in answer to your post.  The comment Asta is Asta is incorrect.  The synthectic forms of Astaxanthin that are commonly used today in commercial feeds have a different molecular structure to natural forms and the outcomes are different, the colouring is not as natural looking and this is why farmed Salmon for example have a different flesh colour to wild caught.

You've given me the impression that you think NatuRose is just another word for Astaxanthin, it is not.  NatuRose is a product that contains Astaxanthin in the form of the algae, Haematococcus Pluvialis BUT it also contains many more bits and pieces so to speak, all of which are very beneficial to fish and their overall health.  Incidentally, the ratio with NatuRose is 3gms per kilio not 60 mate, give 'em that much and they'll glow in the dark.

Why would it have a different reaction on Discus compared to Africans?  I'm not saying it doesn't but if you know please tell me coz I don't.  Are you telling me that Astaxanthin is not eaten by African Cichlids in their natural environment?  Astaxanthin is the very thing that makes Flamingo's pink, it is found naturally in most plant life and crustaceans so if African Cichlids are not eating it in the wild I'd like to know what they eat.  I thought they were mainly vegetarians.

Why shouldn't the public know about Astaxanthin?  Again, it is something that is found in nature.  It's not a hormone or a contraceptive pill, it is something that is eaten daily by fish in the wild and something they gain great benefit from. Because animals cannot synthesize carotenoids de novo, they must obtain these pigments from the plants and algae that support their food chains and unfortunately, we don't have that situation in a tank, we have to add it.

I find it a bit amusing really, so much debate (which is a good thing) on something like Astaxanthin and yet virtually every single fish food on the market has a preservative call Ethoxyquin and I've seen nothing on any fish forum I've ever visited.  Now there's something that should be the topic of much debate, it's arguably the biggest killer of dogs and cats in the US right now and debate is raging over it's use.  Take a look at your food labels people, it's full of the stuff.  Then Google it!
MAC

[gasnitro]

Mistakes are crutial I am not having a go at you but the truth is, i too have contacted  NatuRose direct and they will supply me naturose and I did not cut and paste from there site as you and DFF claim. i could post up all content including the price if you would like but some might get  :-[  >:(  :o and so I will leave it at that! unless you want me to back up my words of course. I was trying to educate DFF from his Nuking. ;D And there are other foods that contain Astax. I did consider to bring some Astax in and that I am getting it in foods already prep I am happy. The food I am using currently that contains Astax is not Aussie made.
Also can you tell me what brand off food you make as I would like to buy {direct} and try it on my breeders.  And yes I have a registered Business.
:)

[Mistakes Are Crucial]

Gasnitro,

The food we have is Breeders Blend but unfortunately we don't sell it directly.  There are sponsors here that sell it though.  There's a flake and pellet and very shortly Spirulina products also laced with NatuRose.
MAC

[Dead Fish Floating]

Yes when I think of naturose I do think of their pure astax product.
And yes astax is astax.
Does it exist in the natural cichlid environ?
Well thats a tricky one. Male cichlids do make it from pigments inside their body. Females don't usually bother.
That said from eating algaes  crustaceans bind astaxanthin to the protein β-crustacyanin, which changes the shape of the astaxanthin molecules, turning them a gray-blue color. There are MANY sythetic forms of astaxanthin, but they have other names e.g. castaxanthin. I doubt the strain of algae your growing for the naturose is found in the same water conditions as malawi, I know my spiru cultures need some seriously high pH to flourish. Astax is not very common in it's pure form, yes theres lots locked up in the foodchain but it's not available to fish the same way it is when ya mix it into their food.
So yes in my mind astax is astax.
No matter the source it gives around the same saturated colours in fish with a similar dose.
As to dose, well I merely followed your 20 times calculations for my ratio to use on female africans.
We agree it will have the end result of colouring them up, just need to agree on the dose that will do it?
heh
I ain't raggin on any products containing astax or astax itself here.
Love the stuff think it's a great tool for fish geeks.
But for all the double speak and voodoo surrounding it.....  well thats kinda not cool.
Was trying to bring a bit of light onto why white crane and other foods containing astax can reduce breeding in female african cichlids.

Why would it have a different reaction on Discus compared to Africans?

because they are dimorphic  ;)

Why shouldn't the public know about Astaxanthin? 

because to the layman colour = healthy, and with a bit of astax feeding shops sell more fish, when colours fade they sell more colour food.



As to you being part of some strange blood cult, I got no problem with that.
All religeons seem a bit kiddy to me but yea each to their own.
As to life evolving outta the ooze, perhaps my panspermia quote was to obscure.
I believe life came here on chunks of rock.
Rock eating dark life.
With this method, the universe is not barren and old comets scatter cells thru the verse.
:-) We are not alone, never were and we are also prob nothing special.
A theory that in the past would have been seen as loopy......  but now, well now it's the baby of some of the greatest minds on the planet.
Year 2000, India....  look into the time it rained blood from the sky. Cells with no DNA.
Religeon died once and for all after that for me.

As to my avatar offending people,
that is.....
weak man

Mr Gasnitro ya post up the prices etc, not going to faze me.
I contacted them last year as well and got all the same data.
Anyway peace fellow humans, I chase only simple truths not a dam thread victory jeez  :)
W000000000T