anyone want to share what types of buffers they use for lower pH?<
><
>I have had some bad experiences with phosphate. doesnt seem stable and prompts algea blooms.<
><
>Anyone keep fish at a pH below 7 without using a buffer? is it necessary?
my tap water is coming out just over 8ph,<
>i''m after some alternatives to the old ph down additive coz my cichlids like it, the
istlies don''t.<
>yeh so, same question really. Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>
mangrove roots and drift wood work well. hope it helps
Running "peat" in your filter, hang on, cannister or sump, will lower the pH. Just experiment with how much to use to lower it the amount you need campared to your tap water.<
>Not sure on which one to use though. Never used just know that it lowers pH. Commerial products like the expanding blocks may contain other unwanted ingredients.<
> Phil<
><
>Beaudesert<
>debphil@ozemail.com.au<
><
>"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."<
>
<
>I agree with Scott, get the biggest pieces of driftwood/mangrove you can.<
><
>Cheers, Doug
is this driftwood to lower the pH or buffer it Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 10/6/05 18:16<
>
Do you mean Phosphoric acid for lowering PH. There are alternatives if thats what you mean. Hydrochloric acid will release small amounts of chlorine and hydrogen. The hydrogen is good for your fish, and the chlorine is negligable if you do it right, or you can add neutraliser AFTER if you want. Carefull with dosages, do some tests. It is trickier than Phosphoric. Ph will drop gradually at first, then all of a sudden. You want to find this point so you dont cross it. <
><
>Pure vinegar is another alternative. Its effects can sometimes take time, as it uses your biological filter. Carbon dioxide is the main byproduct from this reaction in the aquarium. I have often wondered if thats all flourish excel is........<
><
>You can do some research on these two and see what you think.<
><
>Cheers.............<
><
> Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 10/6/05 19:50<
>
I already use hydrochloric acid to drop the pH, and it does not release chlorine (Cl2) it releases cloride (Cl-). And it does not add hydrogen(H2) either. It releases Hydrogen ions (H+) which react with water to create Hydronium ions (H30+). An acid is a solution containing hydronium ions. <
><
>I use the phosphate to buffer the water, which means an equili
ium is created between hydrogen phosphate and dihydrogen phosphate to stabalise the pH. <
><
>I am interested if anyone has any experience using Sulfate as a buffer to keep their pH stable. Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 10/6/05 22:40<
>
geez, makes me wish i''d paid more attention in chemistry..... Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>
Sometimes I wish I paid less attention in chem Nemo <
><
>Sorry, I dumbed it down due to the wording of the original post. You are mostly right. It does however release hydrogen. In the form of ions. If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right. You arent adding it directly to the tank are you? . Either that or your understanding of hydrogen differs from mine.......<
><
>"I use the phosphate to buffer the water, which means an equili
ium is created between hydrogen phosphate and dihydrogen phosphate to stabilise the pH."<
><
> . Are you sure............Why then are you looking to add sulfate? Adding sulfate by they way will be a risky step. Its a little more toxic than ''phosphates'' I wouldnt do it in my tanks. Consequently I wouldnt reccomend it to others. Just do what sigmaphile said. At least you wont go killing anything. The natural processes are for some reason usually the most stable IME. Therefore vinegar/peat are usually best buffers for acid, shell grit/limestone for alkaline. Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 11/6/05 23:41<
>
Gecko, no offence meant, but maybe you got your chemistry classes mixed up with drama classes. <
><
>You see ''Hydrogen ions'' ARE hydronium because Hydrogen ions cannot exist on their own, they react with water instantly, to create hydronium. When people say Hydrogen ions, they really mean hydronium ions.<
><
>ie: (H+) + H2O = H3O+<
><
> Hence : HCL + H20 = H3O + (CL-)<
><
>In simple terms: you cant have ACID without HYDRONIUM IONS<
><
>And about the buffers; <
>ALL acid buffers ARE based on phosphate Or Sulfate, and all buffers operate on the principle of the common ion affect which involves the equili
ium of the acid and conjugate base.<
><
><
>Are you trying to say that every single aquarium buffer is TOXIC to your fish?!<
><
>back to school. <
><
><
> Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 11/6/05 21:54<
>
Sorry Bobo, I dont want to clash with you, nor am I your educator. I will try to make this my last post on this thread. You dont have the full picture yet in my opinion Bobo. There is no need for drama classes. There are indeed other types of cations other than hydronium. Its just the one we use to measure acidity. Hydrogen exists in many forms not taught in chemistry school. An unrelated example: there is another form of hydrogen other than Orto and Para Hydrogen, which burns substatially faster than ortohydrogen. You would think they would teach people about something this important. But they dont. You would never graduate if you had to learn all the relationships. You should also realise that research has yet to fully define the solvation of the hydronium ion in water. How can you possibly understand what science doesnt. Therefore I am always learning. Have been ever since I graduated 15 years ago. So I dont need to go back to school. I never left. I am not offended by your comments. I understand your frustration at me seemingly contradicting what you have been taught. I dont want to confuse things anymore, or put this thread off topic. So I will just say peat or vinegar will be your most stable solutions and leave it at that. We dont need to be at each other just because we dont agree.<
><
>Cheers..........<
> Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 11/6/05 23:39<
>
Gecko, i am sorry for offending you, but i do not take kindly to comments which compromise my integrity. You might not notice, but the things you said in your first post were patronising, not to mention incorrect.<
><
>You say you dont want a clash, then you make a comment like this: "You dont have the full picture yet in my opinion Bobo." Either way, i dont think anyones opinion is relevant if they dont have their facts straight. <
><
><
>"If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right."<
><
>Definition: pH is the negative log of HYDRONIUM IONS. All of sudden it doesnt seem so crazy that your water might actually contain hydronium... considering thats what your pH test kit measures...<
><
>"You should also realise that research has yet to fully define the solvation of the hydronium ion in water."<
>"How can you possibly understand what science doesnt."<
><
>We are talking about BASIC water chemistry here gecko. As much as science still has to discover, i am certain that it is an accepted FACT that acidic water contains H3O+. There is nothing complicated about it. <
><
>"There are indeed other types of cations other than hydronium. Its just the one we use to measure acidity."<
><
>Just about all other cations are metal ions. Good luck measuring your acidity with metal ions. <
><
>So as offensive as i was with my childish comments about school, the fact still remains that the things you said were silly or wrong, and i dont mean to offend you by that. I beleive that water chemistry is an important aspect of fishkeeping, and only seek to ensure that other aquarists do not get the wrong idea about basic water chemistry, due to unsubstantiated comments.<
><
><
> Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 11/6/05 23:46<
>
Everything I have said in this thread is correct. Lets be clear on that. I would not give out mis-information as you are saying. If its basic water chemistry you need, I think other members would be more helpfull to you. Sadly, advanced is the only way I can see it.<
><
>Cheers...........
"If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right"<
><
>That statement is blatantly incorrect. <
><
>Perhaps the reason you see it as advanced is because you dont have a comprehensive knoledge of the basic concepts, which is undeniably shown by the quoted comment. <
><
>Im not looking for help on basic chemistry. If anything, maybe i can teach you something. <
><
>Anyway, as great as it sounds collecting 200kg of mangrove roots, throwing them in a bathtub full of water and waiting a month before i can do a water change, i might just stick to hydrochloric acid. <
><
>There has to be someone on this forum that keeps fish at a low pH like discus or tetras or something. I just want to know what they use to buffer their water. I have found that phosphate buffers feed algea blooms. <
><
><
><
><
><
><
>
this is like a star wars saga!<
><
> <
><
><
>
"If anything, maybe i can teach you something. "<
> Maybe one day but not today...<
>I have gained some knowledge tonight bobo. But not about chemistry. <
>P-E-A-T<
><
>cya<
> Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 12/6/05 1:16<
>
Can the chemists among us confirm or deny something for me? I keep Discus and use Hydrochloric to lower Ph, even though my KH out of the tap is between 1 and 2 it stays pretty stable so I don''t buffer the water.<
><
>I was told or read that it is a waste of time buffering water with say Bi carb and then
inging the Ph down because in order to lower Ph the acid has to eat away at the buffer
inging you back to square one.<
><
>Is this right or what?<
>MAC
Yes Mac. I would consider that a waste of time. The reason you gave is good enough. with PH,KH and GH, as you know its hard to affect one and not the other.<
> Acid buffers arent as straightforward as bobo is being taught they are. Hence the fact we still use peat etc... and not a chemical which will "lock" your ph at a low level, which doesnt even exist....yet. Which is why bobo is not having the success he would like.<
>Bobo is going to invent it for us though <
><
>Cheers... Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 12/6/05 9:41<
>
HTML Comments are not allowed Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 12/6/05 15:14<
>
Thanks for the confirmation.<
>MAC
Goodness me Lets get down to a level that Aquarium keepers in general can understand. Not spout off in terms that only a few of us science graduates understand.<
><
>To keep a low ph tank you need to replicate nature. It is pointless trying to lower your pH if the substrate and rocks or decorations are basic (alkaline). They just counteract every "pH down" product you use.<
><
>Use neutral or acidic gravel,,,,,,,,coffs harbour pebbles (Golden gravel), Pine rivers quartz gravel or sieved and graded decomposed granite. Or you can go even more expensive and use garnet etc... My recommendation is Coffs,,,,$15 or there abouts from the local stone and gravel merchant for a 20kg bag. Ten times that for "Golden Gravel" from the LFS (same thing).<
><
>Check all the rocks and decor !!!!! Those nice holey rocks are usually limestone (alkaline) chuck them.<
><
>Use logs and bog wood for decor, they help lower pH.<
><
>Most all acid water is soft (not always the case, but for our applications lets assume this). Therefore use a commercial water softener or RO unit on your water supply if you are in a hard, alkaline water region.<
><
>Horticultural peat is acid as hell and is available from plant stores and nurseries in small packs or bales. Boil a couple of handfuls in pot (but don''t tell the wife), cool and strain off. Then nick a pair of her pantyhose. Cut off the end of the hose and pack with the boiled peat, knot it, then put this in your filter system somewhere.<
><
>Hey !!! an all natural low pH system. No additives.<
><
>Alan.<
><
>PS. and I''m not telling those other geeks how many letters behind my name. . They will learn with maturity. When life gives you lemons ask for a bottle of tequila & salt.<
>The only danger I find in life is to take too many precautions. Some people walk in the rain, others just get wet.<
>
Gecko if you have a problem with ''what im being taught'' then maybe you should take it up with the school of physical sciences at QUT. I am a full time industrial chemistry student, i know what I am talking about. <
><
>You say there is nothing which will ''lock in pH'' and mock me saying i will invent it. Well you know every la
atory session we use buffers (which are solutions which ''lock in'' a desired pH value). Its an essential part of many of our experiments, i dont know how you can deny that buffers exist. <
><
>Even if you go to your local fish store, they sell acid buffers. Do you think they would still be on the market if they didnt work?<
><
>Having said this, buffers do not ''lock in'' the pH indefinatly, but basically stop it from fluctuating to any significant extent, which is - basically locking in your desired pH. <
><
>And you are right in that in an aquarium situation it is advanced, because there are so many other biological and chemical processes happening which could affect the equili
ium of your buffer. For example, i beleive my phosphate buffer is not working well because i am getting algea blooms which feed off the phosphate, shifting the equili
ium. Its only a theory though. Or maybe my gravel is releasing carbonates. <
><
>Peat is very good for loweing pH and creating specific water conditions, but it wont buffer your water. This means that if it is heavy planted the respiration and photosynthesis of your plants cold make a SLIGHT ph shift over a 24 hour period(there are many other things which could affect ph as well: ie a dodgy water change). If a buffer is used in conjuction with peat, then there should be no shift until the buffer is used up.<
><
>I think the key to good water chemistry is knowing the BASIC concepts of chemistry, and trying to work them into a complicated system (the aquarium) to keep your pH and specific ions at the desired level. Perhaps this is what gecko means by advanced.
Alan after reading your poist it made me more interested in the gravel. Does most gravel make the water alkaline? I got this black gravel, and i did a test on it and it seems to have made demineralised water more alkaline.
You two sound like a married couple, both of you are talking another language to the rest of the forum. <
><
><
>Just use bloody PEAT. PLAIN & SIMPLE
<
>Quote:Even if you go to your local fish store, they sell acid buffers. Do you think they would still be on the market if they didnt work? <
><
>Quote:Having said this, buffers do not ''lock in'' the pH indefinatly, but basically stop it from fluctuating to any significant extent, which is - basically locking in your desired pH. <
>I will beg to differ on that. <
><
>Quote:My recommendation is Coffs,,,,$15 or there abouts from the local stone and gravel merchant for a 20kg bag. Ten times that for "Golden Gravel" from the LFS (same thing).<
>Really, Coffs for sale for $25 for 20kg at one lfs on the Goold Coast.<
><
>Finally,<
>Quote:You two sound like a married couple, both of you are talking another language to the rest of the forum. <
>Just use bloody PEAT. PLAIN & SIMPLE<
>Couldn''t have said it better. <
><
>Frenchy <
> "A house full of people is a house full of different points of view"<
>
I dont want to use peat to lower pH. I dont want to run peat through through my water everytime before i have to do a water change. Its much easier i think, to add a certain ammount of hydrochloric acid. <
><
>In addition, there could be anything in garden peat. Just because something is ''natural'' doesnt mean its good. If i ever use peat, i will be careful and experiment with it first. How do you know that all the humic acids are good for your fish? How do you know how much is too much? These are the things i would like to research before i put it in my fish tank. <
><
>Im not saying peat is bad, but if i ever use it, I will be boiling it for the tea, to make my own black water extract.<
>
Bobo,<
>I guess I an confused like everyone else.<
>You ask VERY simple questions then get in to basic and advanced chemistry debates and then seem to attack and suggestions given to you by experienced fish keepers.<
>Do you actually want and answer or was this post just to cater to your ego and allow you to sprout all kinds of information that is totally useless to the average fish keeper????<
>Anytime anyone has asked about lowering pH the usual reply is "use peat in the filter/tank".<
>I don''t think anyone on here currently can, or will wanto anymore, answer your questions.<
> Phil<
><
>Beaudesert<
>debphil@ozemail.com.au<
><
>"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."<
>
Well im sorry sigmaphile, but simple as my question was, simple answers are not what im looking for. I could have told myself that PEAT and mangrove roots lowers pH. You dont need to be an experienced fishkeep to know that. <
><
>The main thing i wanted to know, was if anyone has used sulfate buffers, or any other salts/ chemicals to buffer soft acid water, and their experiences. <
><
>And yes, i enjoy debating and discussing any aspect of water chemistry because it is one of my passions. Most of this thread is a debate between gecko and I. Whether or not my ego is involved is irrelevant. The average fishkeeper probably doesnt worry about the water chemistry as much as i do, so if this information is totally useless to you, disregard it. No one is forcing you to read it. I dont even know why you had to comment.<
><
>Back on topic: <
>I would like to compare using peat to condition acidic water, as opposed to using other chemicals to lower, buffer and add extracts.<
><
>I think the main advantage of peat, is that it lowers the pH, keeps it lowered, and adds humic acid extracts to the water.<
><
>I think the main disadvantages are it is harder to control different aspects of your water using peat. For example:<
><
>-What if the right ammount of peat to change to correct pH darkens your water too much?<
>-Will peat remove calcium hardness?<
>-What if the right ammount of peat used to soften carbonate hardness to the correct level, leaves you with the wrong pH?<
>-What if peat is not a strong enough acid to remove carbonate hardness in a prepared water change, which could lead to your water rising in pH over a long period?<
><
>This is why i have an aversion to peat. I would be glad for anyone to discuss their experiences using peat and how these variables are controlled. <
><
>The way i see it, it is easier to drop the pH with acid, run it through ion exchange resin if required, buffer it, then add blackwater extract. That way all variables are controlled, and nothing is going to change (unless your gravel releases carbonoates like mine ) Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 15/6/05 0:57<
>
Use phosphoric acid. test out on a 20 litre bucket to get ph to say 6. You can then make yourself a solution or whatver......You want the carbonate still to be around 3. If less than 3 use sodium bicarbonate to raise the carbonate hardness. You need this carbonate hardness for the nitrifying bacteria to do there job properly.<
>Peat moss is fine if you get a high quality one, eg canadian. It will keep ph at 6 to 6.5. But you also have to watch the carbontes.<
><
>The trouble with Acid is an overdose of this will be worse for your fish than an overdose of peat.<
><
>Frenchy "A house full of people is a house full of different points of view"<
>Edited by: here fishie fishie at: 15/6/05 7:20<
>
thought I might add this,<
>before freshwater, I was very into marine fishkeeping,still am to some degree.Firstly I have no phd and study no type of science or chemistry and suked at physics at school.I studied the absolute @#%$ out of keeping marine books from the local li
ary as I didnt have the luxury of a computer back then.The information out there on water parameters and the like, especially when keeping corals and inverta
ates can be totally overwhelming and also very expensive to the point that it allmost turned me away from marine fish before I even thought about getting a fish!Any one that has done alot of reading on marine fish and coral keeping will probably agree with this.I found alot of information from one book to another, contradicted what the other would say.It can get quite confusing.I went to a guy that dedicated his entire 400sq m lower floor of his house to marine and corals. I asked him how do you do this? He said stick to the basics and you cant go wrong.This sounded pretty good to me.The four basic and mostly important he said were ;regular water changes, ;specific gravity, you dont like too much salt do you?;a healthy biological filter sysyem and correct temperatures, you wouldnt like to shiver or sweat.I didnt believe it could be that simple, but I kept beautifull fish and some wicked corals successfully for three years or so on that advice untill I moved and didnt have the room for the setup I had, and had to sell.Sure some parameters that are left unchecked might go a little crazy sometimes but if you have clean fresh well filtered water at the right temp you should be right.Putting acid in your tank ? Sounds a bit sketchy to me, but hey Im a basic guy that doesnt know jack about that tech stuff you guys were going on about.As one of you said ''it is your passion'' Im not bagging you guys out or trying to start an online war but just trying to get the message to others out there like me, that it can be as technical as you want it to be, or as basic as you want it to be. <
><
>Happy fish keeping to all you average C students out there<
><
>Ash
I agree with Ash. In one of my tanks i keep discus which prefer soft slightly acidic water. My tap water is alkaline and soft. I have one piece of driftwood in the tank that helps keep that water slightly acidic. Basically i do a 25% weekly water change. I don''t do anything to the tap water before putting it in the tank and find that even though the tap water is alkaline, once added it will only
ing the ph of the entire tank up to neutral, and then over the next week slowly drops back to slightly acidic. I don''t even dechlorinate the water before adding to the tank and i''ve had these same discus for 3 years with no losses.<
><
>For me fishkeeping is about enjoying the fish, not playing the chemist to ensure water conditions are invariably precise day in day out. For me that would be a pain in the ass. <
><
>Also i think it very rare for fish in nature to enjoy a utopian environment where their water paramaters never change. Brackish water fish always experience varying salinity levels from freshwater to saltwater, African fish may experience sudden reductions in Ph and the level of carbonates after sudden heavy rain, so i don''t think some variance in the aquarium is going to hurt all that much. <
><
>Oh and by the way I have 3 post secondary qualifications but they don''t count for @#%$ because 90% of what you learn is away from the classroom. It annoys me when I hear people say that because they have a certain degree they know what they are talking about. They very well might and may very well be correct, but may not necessarily be the best way of doing something. <
><
>My opinion is listen to the old time fish keepers on here, who have used proven basic methods for years to successfully
eed and keep fish, these are the people who know what they are talking about.
ok, <
>can i ask a question about peat?<
>my tap water is coming out about 8.6.<
>I keep alot of
istlenose and find they
eed best when the ph is in the 7''s.<
>What is an easy way to use peat to lower ph levels?<
><
>Would putting some peat in a bucket, with fine holes and maybe some mesh in the bottom sitting on another bucket or container, and drain the water through the peat bucket work?<
><
>Would the water in the reservoir have a lower ph?<
>I don''t know i''ve never used peat, but i do know i''m sick of using ph down.<
>and even with considerable driftwood in the tanks, it still rarely goes below 8.<
><
>any help appreciated.<
>and keep it simple, chemistry wasn''t my strong subject.. Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>
Steve,<
>I think that using two buckets like that might just work.<
>Filter some water and then check the pH. Add some of your tap water and keep adding until you get the right pH.<
>It will take a little bit of stuffing around and some calculations to start but once you work out how much for your peat filtered water you need to get the right pH all you have to do is then do water changes with the peat filtered water.<
>If it is a bit low add some normal tap water. The driftwood will help the pH stay low once there.<
>Let me know how you go. May set it up myself for my B/N.<
>If I do it first I will let you know my results. What peat I used and how much water I needed or even the pH change from my tap water to water filtered through the peat.<
><
> Phil<
><
>Beaudesert<
>debphil@ozemail.com.au<
><
>"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."<
>
<
>Yes Bryce, as long as the water is clean, ph isn''t to different, most fish will do fine. <
>Nemo, as Phil said you have to experiment a little. I have had Bristlenose
eed no problems in african setups.<
><
>Quote:African fish may experience sudden reductions in Ph and the level of carbonates after sudden heavy rain,<
>Um no. <
>Quote:so i don''t think some variance in the aquarium is going to hurt all that much. <
>Lake Tangy cichlids it will.<
><
>Frenchy "A house full of people is a house full of different points of view"<
>
I discovered my gravel was releasing carbonates into the water. Its the type of black granite gravel. So if you want to keep fish at a lower pH, dont use it. The guys at the store even had no idea. <
><
>Ive switched to river sand. Hope it works out.
frenchy,<
>i do have
istlenose in 8ph water that are
eeding, just found through previous experience that they
eed more readily in ph in the 7''s.<
><
>i''m using coffs harbour gold in all of my tanks, so at least i don''t have to worry about that too much altering the ph.<
><
>funny, my ph used to come out about 7.2, 7.4. now 8.6 Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>
Be careful using peat, alot of
ands release ammonia.
Quote:Be careful using peat, alot of
ands release ammonia<
>well can you recommend any
ands and the best place to get them? Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>
Nemo,<
><
>I bought a bale of Sunshine Peat (
and name) which is Canadian Sphagnum, it releases small amounts of ammonia but nothing that a little Prime or other conditioner cant fix. From memory I think the test went to about .25. It works well and lowers the Ph and hardness as long as your water isnt too hard to start with. I found the ammonia in other
ands was off the scale so be careful which ones you buy.<
>HTH MAC
just grab a slab or mangrove root/ drift wood and all your worries will be over
I have been keeping fish for over 20 years<
>And I just add crushed coral<
>It works for me but it does tend to harden the water<
>Good luck
crushed coral raises pH, as opposed to lowering. We are talking about lowering pH.