Hi everyone...
Well as some of you may know, i had a small group of burundi frontosas, that was until the day before yesterday...
My LFS got some large frontosas in for me and had them for sale at a very good price ( i had not even gave my word i would buy any, i merely stated interest in wanting some more, that shows the relationship i have with them )
But there was one problem and that was that my ph in my cyphos tank was about 7.4 with my fronnies doing abosolutely fine....
And the ones at the LFS were at 8.4 so i was givin some ph/kh up to put in my tank...
Now i was told to put more then i thought wise in over a period of a few hours, but i decided to only put 2 teaspoon fulls in my 60gallon tank...
I then went out only to come home to find all the frontosas dead, and the bristlenose struggling....
Now what really annoys me is my mum happen to go to the shops today and meet one of the fishshop owners and told her what had happen...only to be told that i HAD done the wrong thing and raised it too quick...
I will be going down there tomorrow to see what may come of this...
I doubt i will get any replacements, but i feel that i should at least get a further discount on my next big purchase...
Only changes that occurred in the tank in the last week was i did about a 30% water change...i did not clean the filter at all or anything else...just the water change and moved some of the rocks around....
Now i know i must have done something right in the last few months as i measured the dead fish and my **use to be ** dominant male had grown from bout 3.5 inches to just over 5inches and the females had grown quite abit....
I have now givin up on my dream of owning breeding frontosas...i just cant afford any more fronts at the time being unless they're very very cheap...
Well thats it for now...just had to vent my anger and dissapointment...
Cheers,
Sam
Sam,
Sorry for your loss. It is always hard when you loose fish you have had for a while, especially when they are not ordinary fish.
I think you will have NO CHANCE of making a LFS accountable for what they say (or don't say), or the fish they sell.
I have tried recently and got NOWHERE.
Hope you have more luck than me.
i think we can all say that we have been in the same boat at one stage or another.
so did you get some of the new one as well??
it might have been shock that effected them both ways.... the new one droping down to your ph level and the raising of the ph for your ones.
your really damed if you do and your damed if you dont.
hind sight is a wonderful thing....... maybe if you had the tank space put the new one's into a tank of their own at 8.4 and let it come down by its self till it got to your level and then swap them over into your fronie tank.
as lucky phil said i dont like your chances of getting any joy from the lfs, but hey give it a go.......
if it was some $2.00 live bearers i wouldnt care but when were talking fronies id be on their door step when they open.....
chin up
think of it this way you havent lost some fish you've gained experence.
If you've been a good customer to that store I think they would at least try to help out a bit.
If nothing else but good customer relations.
Don't know why they would have advised as they did.
I would think slowly acclimatizing the new fish to your exicting PH would have been a wiser move but whats done is unfortunately done.
Chalk it up to experience and better luck next time.
Chers Linda
Yeah mate sorry about the losses. I would suggest in future follow your gut feel and if unsure turn to the forum for advice not someone from a lfs. You will generally always getter a broader range of better advice from here than most lfs.
No i did not get any of the new fronnies...
I thought it would be best if i adjusted my water first ...
I have went down the fishshop and it was blamed on the water ( Bit of ammonia and nitrite )... Doesnt make alot of sense as they were fine for the last week ...
I have givin up on frontosas for now..
But if anyone in NSW has cheap african cichlids or fronnies for sale please let me know...i need to fill this tank up again... :(
I would ask them, how do u raise the ph? I would like to know if they give the right answer.
[quote:246e58f5ee]Now i was told to put more then i thought wise in over a period of a few hours, but i decided to only put 2 teaspoon fulls in my 60gallon tank... [/quote:246e58f5ee]
Is this exactly what you did? Did you do a water change with this?
When raising ph, you can use Sodium Bicarbonate at a rate of 30 grams per 100 litres of fresh water add to the aquarium. This is considered a gradual increase to.
[b:246e58f5ee]You should only ever raise the ph when doing a water change.[/b:246e58f5ee]
The reason is, whenever you raise the ph of tank water, free ammonium will be instantly formed.
Frenchy :D
No i didnt change any water...but i followed the advice of the LFS..
I understand that everone needs to make a profit but i do feel betrayed in a way...
I should not have been told to do something that could risk the life of the other fish...
If you had ammonia present in your tank then raising the PH will make that ammonia much more toxic. Ammonia present in an aquarium becomes alot more toxic as the PH rises.
Please have a look here for very detailed information on this:
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html
What you have described is a fairly common incident. When you got the advise from your local fish shop, they probably assumed your ammonia was under control, as it should be in an established aquarium.
Sorry to hear about your loss, but I don't think you can legitimately feel too aggrieved in these circumstances sorry.
And whether the advise given is accurate or not is beside the point anyway. You are responsibe for what you do to your fish, and taking the advise of one person from a LFS is not really good research. You'll always have a couple of experts at your LFS, but there are likely to be a few staff that have no idea. At my LFS there is only one guy that knows how to identify the cichlids, and when he's not working I have to identify the cichlid for them so they can charge me the right price!
Good luck with your future fish endeavours and maybe do a bit more research next time. You've learnt the hard way, but at least you've learnt.
Paul is correct, an established aquarium should be under control, and I have had to move fish from 8.5ph to 7ph, done over about 30 minutes, but they all survive.
Not sure what you where using to raise your ph aswell? What was the product? becuase depending on the size of the tank, I cant think of anything that with 2 teaspoons will make that much of a difference to your tank.
Not a tank big enough for frontosa.
Cough, Cough.
[quote:59221d0a24]The reason is, whenever you raise the ph of tank water, [b:59221d0a24]free ammonium will be instantly formed[/b:59221d0a24]. [/quote:59221d0a24]
Paul, you ammonia reading can still be [b:59221d0a24]zero[/b:59221d0a24] at the start, before raising the ph of tank water. What you said is a common thing, but not always correct on why. [b:59221d0a24]When you raise the ph of a tank free ammonium is instantly formed[/b:59221d0a24], the higher the ph the more ammonia is converted from the built-up ammonium. So you end up with an Ammonia problem [b:59221d0a24]because you have created a heap of Ammonium[/b:59221d0a24].
Established tank or not, it may not cope. It is always a risk. Hence the need to do water changes when raising the ph. LFS or forum watch what you read or hear people.
[quote:59221d0a24]Paul is correct, an established aquarium should be under control, and I have had to move fish from 8.5ph to 7ph, done over about 30 minutes, but they all survive. [/quote:59221d0a24]
Wrong on the established part.
Do you mean it was 7ph, then you went 8.5ph? If so you were lucky, nothing else. Just like everyone else who has done it from time to time including myself.
I do agree 2 teaspoons isn't much for a tank that size, knowing some of the products on the market.
Frenchy :D
here fishy fishy,
I have never heard of "free ammonium" being instantly formed when the PH rises. Could you please supply a reference to this fact? I would be interested to read about it. I have never heard of such a thing before. I'll be happy to stand corrected :)
I have never heard of that either, so I would be interested in a reference too.
Also, it is my understanding that ammonium is far less toxic to fish than ammonia.
Michael
i agree also about raising ph the ammonia can spike why would you have 7.4 for frontys in the first place :? . did you do a water change with raising ph up. what sort of filtration do you have?
anyway sorry for your loss :(
Okay, Ive re read this thread and I now know what Justin means, although I dont think he has expressed it particularly well.
Here is a layman's summary:
The total ammonia level of your tank comprises of un-ionized and ionized ammonia (NH3+, NH4+ respectively) The un-ionized form is toxic to fish, the ionised form, less toxic.
The ratio between ionized and un-ionized ammonia is dependent upon, and changes with, the pH of the water. The higher the pH the more ammonia is in the toxic form; conversely, the lower the pH the less ammonia is in the toxic form.
So in summary, what Justin is trying to say is that when you increased the pH of the water, the ratio between ionised and unionised ammonia changed resulting in an increase in the toxic form of ammonia.
So it is possible that your fish were happy when the pH was down because there was less ammonia present in its toxic form. When you increased the pH, more of the toxic form was created resulting the the death of your fish.
However, Im not sure though that Justin's advice of a water change will avert the problem because the breakdown of the Chloromine by dechlorinators during water changes also creates ammonia.
I think that the only way to safely raise the pH is to ensure that there is no ammonia present (by having a properly cycled tank with adequate filtration) in the first place.
Michael
Michael
Mickvick, your summation is exactly correct, and is consistent with what I have already posted in this thread. I assume Justin is Here fishy fishy? I don't think that what he is trying to say is what you have just summated.
Hello Paul,
Weren't happy to learn something new, just because you never heard it before. :lol: Thats why half the time I use referenced statements but leave the reference out, as I like to see peoples reactions.
Mick, explanation is basically what I meant, sort off, I think.... :roll:
You see when the ph in a tank is low, usually the carbonates in the water are lower too. The Nitrifying Bacteria that break down the ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow. So the lower the ph the lower the numbers of nitrifying bacteria. So ammonium in lower ph tanks is at usually at higher levels. A sudden rise of the ph in aquariums can be a disaster beacause of all the free ammonium, it gets converted into Ammonia. Remember that it takes time for the Nitrifying bacteria to grow.
[b:6215f4b77f]So if old mate took his water to get tested, they will say it is your fault, you have an ammonia problem see look at the result. Well truth be told, its a very good chance he didn't have an ammonia problem. They are seeing the result of the free ammoium, from a lower ph tank. [/b:6215f4b77f]
Ammonium is predominantly present in lower pH environments and doesn't carry the multitude of problems associated with the more toxic ammonia.
Is that better?
As for reference, I dont think you asked me nice enough lol. Lets say the dude shits all over us.
Mick that is why water changes were suggested & also to raise the ph s l o w l y :wink:
eg; use 30grams of sodium bicarbonate per 100litres of new water.
Frenchy :D
Bloody kiwis :P
[quote:aa0d6a8f0f]Bloody kiwis :P [/quote:aa0d6a8f0f]
:lol: What, I have been here longer than the turncoat playing full back for you guys on Friday night :lol:
Frenchy :D
Hi Frenchy,
I see where the confusion is now. When I am talking about ammonia, I'm talking about the general term for the NH3 molecule and also the NH4+ ion. Whereas you are called the NH4+ Ion ammonium. Each to their own.
Still, your assertion that ammonia NH3 will always be present in any aquarium is wrong. Ammonia, either as NH3 or NH4+ should never be present in measurable quantities in an established aquarium.
[quote:110feff98a]
...the lower the ph the lower the numbers of nitrifying bacteria.[/quote:110feff98a]
A more correct statement would be to simply state that ph affects the growth rate of nitrifying bacteria. There is no linear relationship. Growth of nitrifying bacteria will also slow as the PH rises above a certain PH. Regardless this relationship does not apply here. The original poster stated that his ph was already above 7 and below 8. http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html states that "Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5" Nitrosomonas bacteria is responsible for converting Ammonia to Nitrite.
So any ammonia (NH3 or NH4+) present in this person's aquarium would not be related to the ph and more likely related to poor aquarium practices.
While I would still advise raising the PH slowly in any aquarium, ammonia poisoning would not be one of the reasons why.
Frenchy, I frequent discussion boards for the purpose of sharing knowledge and experience only. It's always helpful to reference any of your facts to support your claims and provide a point for further reading for those that want to know more.
[quote:8383e52273]Still, your assertion that ammonia NH3 will always be present in any aquarium is wrong.[/quote:8383e52273]
Really :?: Am I :?: Oh dear :!: :lol: I didn't say that anywhere. I am talking about NH4{Ammonium} :roll: being converted to NH3.
Ammonia & Ammonium are seperate. Most basic tests will read as the same.
As long as your fish releases waste{pee} & if you have a low ph you will always have Ammonium, if it is at readable levels or not. Cheers. Unless they are all constipated.
Ammonia & Ammonium are seperate. Most basic tests will read as the same.
As for your comment, about Sam not listening to a LFS & researching the information himself. What is the point of having a forum then :?: :roll:
Frenchy :D
I hate to quote u 2 BUT
[quote:760da974ed]Growth of nitrifying bacteria will also slow as the PH rises above a certain PH. [/quote:760da974ed]
The bacteria grow better at a higher ph, it needs carbonates to grow. Carbonates are more prsent in higher ph's correct :?: Maybe you can re read then re post thank you.
Once again I am talking about Ammonium, :roll:
Once again just for Paul, don't get to excited now, you ready Paul, are you sure now, hate for you to miss read it again....
"The bacteria that break down the Ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow."
It is a quote. I have shown people this before, it is from a book that I have in my hot little hands.
Why would I give you a reference when you come out & say
{a} I am wrong when you miss quote me &
{b} making a statement about bacteria like the one you have above.
At least mickvick went & did some research & sort of figured out my Kiwi jibberish. :P Do as you suggested to poor Sam, go research yourself. Cheers.
Frenchy :D
You're not making much sense at all now so I think we should leave this thread be.
I'll just address a couple of points.
[quote:259bc72248]
The bacteria grow better at a higher ph, it needs carbonates to grow. Carbonates are more prsent in higher ph's correct Question Maybe you can re read then re post thank you.[/quote:259bc72248]
That's a really simplistic way of looking at it. Infact it's plainly wrong. I have addressed this point as plainly and simply as I can. There is no linear relationship between ph and bacteria growth rate. are you trying to say that bacteria will flourish in a solution of ph 14?
[quote:259bc72248]Why would I give you a reference when you come out & say
{a} I am wrong when you miss quote me &
{b} making a statement about bacteria like the one you have above. [/quote:259bc72248]
Don't take it personally if I disagree with you on a point. The purpose of any reference is to validate your point and back up your statements with fact. Infact I don't know why I even have to say that, it's obvious.
Find me a reputable source that says raising the ph of a well maintained, healthy, established aquarium will produce toxic NH3 in measurable levels and we can continue this discussion. Until then your argument is just heresay and nasty personal attacks.
"The bacteria that break down the Ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow." Quote. Lasse Forsberg. He goes onto say a [b:4240ebed85]stable ph of 8[/b:4240ebed85] would be nice, how lovely. So must be enough carbonates there.
As for bacteria growth at a 14ph. How many cichlids will live at a ph of 14. You taking the Mickey, yet you tell me to stick to facts. Interesting.
[quote:4240ebed85]Ammonium ions are a toxic waste product of the metabolism in animals and are excreted unchanged in the urine by water animals.
the degree to which ammonia forms the ammonium ion depends on the pH of the solution.[/quote:4240ebed85]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium
ps; Quote what ever you like, about ammonia, bacteria with ammonia.
It isn't what I am talking about first up now was it, get ammonia out of your brain for a second. Read up on ammonium first. Your forst question to me was basically asking about Ammonium.
Once again cheers.
Frenchy :D
ps; Everything I wrote came from Texts or similar. Look up what Lasse Forsberg has done. If you can't I will let you know who he is & his achievements tomorrow. It's all in a book or 2 I have, editor is some Ad Konings fella.
You don't get what I mean with the information I have posted Paul, having a reference next to it isn't go to make the penny drop for you either. :lol:
Ammonium...... :lol:
Frenchy :D
Sam...did you ever expect this kind of response?
Wow......what do we all reckon...can we please see a measure off..come on...here and now :wink:
Frenchy, i got the jist, something tells me you might kind of know what you are talking about, people also needed to understand a bit to read it, not saying anyone didn't- no probs, i think we are all fine now...watch those pH rises hey.
Well now...who wants to tell me about Bauxite, Alumina, and Aluminium... :)
That's enough joking around from me, I hope everyone is happy, except poor old Sam.
Mate, it is tough luck, but all i can say champ is in future, as other have suggested, just get the new fish into buckets and spend as long as you need to to bring them to the right pH. Just ask Mudskipper and Trophius about it, who had some 50 duboisi arrive in Moura one night, pH 7 in the bags....8.6 or something in the tanks, there started a very, very slow gradual change of water for the tropheus in buckets to bring them up to desired over a couple of hours, and then not a single loss. It was the other way around for you but adjusting the new fish is typically the easiest way mate, best to leave tanks as they are and if raising pH, have a sweet system (with already heaps of above water and below water filter area for bacteria)...or just take your time with the good old water changes- but only look to do that if say, changing a fish from tropical to african or something like that, otherwise just used buffers in your tank and keep the pH stable long term.
Tough way to learn mate, we've all had similar things happen to us before, just a shame on such good fish.
All the best in the future mate, don't give up on the fronnies, like a few of the guys have said, feel free to ask these sorts of Q's here first, there is plenty of people with a lot of experience out there who can help you out.
Andrew.
Wow guys :!:
I never expected a reply like this... 8O
Now i am not going to go into the Technical stuff, as i had trouble understanding most of what frenchy and paul said...lol
BUT, i dont feel as if you are right paul,
[quote:011c53b6d3="Paul"]If you had ammonia present in your tank then raising the PH will make that ammonia much more toxic. Ammonia present in an aquarium becomes alot more toxic as the PH rises.
Please have a look here for very detailed information on this:
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html
What you have described is a fairly common incident. When you got the advise from your local fish shop, they probably assumed your ammonia was under control, as it should be in an established aquarium.
Sorry to hear about your loss, but I don't think you can legitimately feel too aggrieved in these circumstances sorry.
And whether the advise given is accurate or not is beside the point anyway. You are responsibe for what you do to your fish, and taking the advise of one person from a LFS is not really good research. You'll always have a couple of experts at your LFS, but there are likely to be a few staff that have no idea. At my LFS there is only one guy that knows how to identify the cichlids, and when he's not working I have to identify the cichlid for them so they can charge me the right price!
Good luck with your future fish endeavours and maybe do a bit more research next time. You've learnt the hard way, but at least you've learnt.[/quote:011c53b6d3]
You could not understand the situation i was in..
Try being a faithful customer for 6yrs, purchasing 90% of your aquarium goods at the same place, Selling fry to them at bargain prices and just being good friends...
You cant possible tell me that you wouldnt trust someone who you reciece great deals off yourself, and also knowing that the person is very knowledgeable....
My point in my first post was, considering the fishshop gave me the wrong advice, i thought maybe we could struck a deal in regards to me getting some other fish at say half price...
I think that if you are not 100% sure on the advice your about to give you just shoudnt give it...
I have moved on now, and admit i made a mistake aswell, so i am not going to push for anything... :D
[quote:011c53b6d3="gasnitro"]i agree also about raising ph the ammonia can spike why would you have 7.4 for frontys in the first place :? . did you do a water change with raising ph up. what sort of filtration do you have?
anyway sorry for your loss :([/quote:011c53b6d3]
Gasnitro, frontosas can live at any ph from 7.2 - 8.8 as long as its kept stable..
Most fronny breeders will agree with me on this...
I was running a cannister filter on the tank @ 1500L per hour...
So there was more then enough filtration on the tank....
Thank you for all the replys guys, i appreciate the people who gave there kind words..
I am now going to use the tank as a fry grow out tank/ or a tank to house a colony of hongi's if i find them... :P
Thanks again,
Sam
All the best Sam with the now grow out tank. Sorry if I went on a bit, ok a bit more than a bit.
My question was I wanted to know what the fish shop said to you about how to raise the ph. Most people are concerned about shock to fish, ph burns... Not many people know what really happens when you raise the ph, eg; Ammonium. Andrew knows by the looks of it. I spoke to a couple of people yesterday & today about this topic, just to check & see that what I read & also thought was correct.
The trouble is when writing from texts, they can long & drawn out & to write down word fo word....arrggghhhh. Not like I can copy & paste, like an interent source :lol:
So I just write what happens, really if people want to know why, easy information to source, just have to look up the right words or word.
Once again Sam, happy fish keeping.
Frenchy :D
Yeah sorry about all this. I respect your knowledge of fish keeping Frenchy.
<Offers virtual handshake to Frenchy>
Extends hand and accepts virtual handshake, & says sorry himself.
Not my knowledge, just have a few books handy. & a little bit of memory.
Frenchy :D
Ha Ha Ha!!!!!!!!
Justin.......Memory...........
Thats a good one. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thats why I said a little bit ginger nut. :roll:
I do remember you being a left arm pie chucker of slow medium pace. :lol: u hack :wink: Correct me if I am wrong lol.
Frenchy :D