Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: NEONS DYING
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Ok recently i went to a LFS and they had neons on sale. I have always been under the presumption that Neons have a tendancy to die because i have never been to an LFS and not seen atleast one floating around.
Well i bought 15 knowing that some would die. Yesterday i did a water change. And i accidently sucked one half way up the gravel filter and then let him go.. but he was already starting to die he was going black around his tail and looked like he didnt have a sense of balance, was kinda floating either side. Then after i filled the tank up he died. I knew it was comming. So i did a head count and noticed i only had 11 neons 1 of which had dies which equalled 4 neons had gone missing.. maybe eaten by a ghost knife or the discus? Then over night another 1 died and this morning i have noticed 2 with the same symptoms and i have had to remove them cos they died.
The water params are ph 6.3, water temp 30C and thats all i can test for I do 2-3 50% water changes per week.
Tank mates are 1 2.5inch red turk, 1 2.5 inch ghost knife, 1 rainbow shark and 1 small stunted cat fish.
The tank is 70litres with an 800l/hr hang on filter and an under gravel filter, it is planted and i have been putting seachem flourich excel in to kill the blackbeard algae at the recommended dosage.
Please help i dont want them all to die..
UPDATE
Ok i have just gone and inspected my tank, and the latest victim only has 1 eye... which makes me think that something has definately been attacking my neons.. And then i noticed my ghost knife eating something.. it was a dead neon, i think he has been attacking them at night, then when they die he eats them..
Does this soud possible??
Not only possible, it is very probable! BGK are notorious for snacking on smaller fish at night.
James
This isnt just at night.. this is all day too.
I have an abnormal ghosty that is unbelievably brave. Ie eats flake from the top of the tank, is out most of the day swimming about searching the plants for any flake or bloodworms that might be on the leaves and he is unbelievably fat!!! his belly would easily be 8-10mm wide 8O he is a very active ghosty and not affraid to pounce during the day i have noticed.
water temp 30C?? isnt that a lil to hot?.. i have neons n the water temp is only one 26c... also have blue rams in there too
I agree, the ghostie will be killing them. Other comments though......
30 degrees is way too hot. Drop it down to 25.
I'd back off the water changes a bit too 3x 50% per week is a lot and not really necessary. It may be a bit stressful for the fish. I'd drop it back to 1 or 2, 20% changes per week. The main purpose of waterchanges is to remove nitrates. If you have to do 3x 50% water changes per week to keep nitrates under control, you have a problem. .over feeding, decaying matter etc.
There also seems to be alot of filtration. The hang on alone turns the water over 11 times per hr. How are the fish going with all that current? 6 times per hour is considered a good amount of filtration.
What I have found is that sometimes you can over care for fish.
Michael
Hey guys thanks for your help...
The problem is i have a very needing discus in the tank which requires 2-3 water changes per week... so thats what they get. I dont normally have the filter on full becuase it gets a bit strong so its probably only400-600l/hr to tell the truth but i up it is the water is dirty cos i havent changed it in a week or so :oops: The temp also has to be high because of the discus and they all seemed happy until i think my ghosty got a taste for neons... I'm not too fussed its only neons but i do like them....
Well b4 u put fish in the tank u should of read up about what temp n all cos all fish r diff... so by the sounds of it ya discus n neons have two diff needs in water temps..
discus can have temp from 26 to 30c so id turn it down to 26c u r most prob cooking ya fish
also with the temp at 30 degress, if theres not alot of airation in the tank, a lack of 0xygen could be a possible cause for concern
I might drop it down to 28.. But discus dont like it much below that. Its not like they were really that new, they have been there for a few weeks so i would have thought they would have been cooked by now ?? I have an air pump running 2 lines into the tank and the hang on filter so i dont think oxygen is a problem and they arnt gulping at the surface for air.
In regards to research, i did do reading and was under the impression that neons would be ok with discus, not the ideal match made in heaven cos discus eat neons too, but otherwise they are relatively compatible. And i double checked at a LFS that has a large amount of discus and they said it should be ok... So i dont know (Throws hands up and Shrugs shoulders.)
Hi,
I keep a bit of discus too and i think 26-28degree is fine for them unless u are breeding them but even for my breeding pair, the temperature is ard 27.
Neon can go well in the tank till ur discus get too big and they might become the discus lunch/dinner :lol: . I have some hegili rasbora in my 3 ft with discus, all going well till the discus start to breed and they killed the rasbora :cry:
800L/hr is definitely too strong for either discus or neon.
Good luck. :wink:
Thanks again guys your help is much appreciated. I have dropped the temp down a little and will do so again tomorrow. Dont wana do it all at once and give them shock or something. :roll: I really like neons.. but i think they are destined to be dinner
I dont think 2 degrees in one day is going to shock your fish as much as the 3 water changes per week(100 litres of drinking water), hope you dont live in SE Qld.
If you do live in Se Qld, read a thread on here called Pending level 4 water restrictions, if you live in Papua New Guinea dont worry about it.
Theo
Your Discus will be fine at 26 to 28 degrees. They don't have to be kept at 30 degrees and don't require 3 water changes a week unless there is a problem with the tank. As others have said, the filter is too strong for the size tank and the inhabitants in it.
If your water is dirty maybe watch how much you are feeding and cut that back a bit if necessary. When you say the water is dirty...what colour is it. Possibly too much light or direct sunlight is turning it a bit green.
The Black Ghost is the culprit for the disappearing & damaged neons and I wouldn't have him as a tank mate for Discus as his night preditory nature will at the least unsettle them when he has no neons left to snack on.
The neons are suitable tank mates for discus as they do like the same temps and water conditions and some of the other tetras, rasboras & smaller catfish are also good.
Fish keeping is a learning process in itself so don't get disheartened.
Good luck.
Linda
Dont worry I'm not dishartened.. They will be fine the filter isnt on full ball so no one stress about that. I have been keeping fish for almost a year and have learnt a lot i know you can never stop learning and unfortunately neons = dinner in my tank, but everything else seems fine.
It funny everyone you talk to gives a differing opinion.. Some say BGK are fine others dont, i think it depends on the fish and what they get used to...
[quote:9884ddacce]i did do reading and was under the impression that neons would be ok with discus,[/quote:9884ddacce]
I am sure that it is the cardinal tetras that come from the same regions as discus & not neons? Neons stay nice & small & are eaten by others, especially GKF, which should be read up on too. Generally, if it fits in ones mouth then it will be eaten.
As for 30 degrees, I have seen discus breed & happily live in 27.
Personally the water restrictions line is a crock of sh#t, the people in power have known about the pending water problem for years yet have chosen to do nothing,{lets hope it rains lol} so you can spare us that one. Go talk to those in power rather than spin the bullsh#t to Jadels.
As for your filter, I have found that hang on filters don't create as much of a current as internal powerheads with the same lph. So that should be fine, especially if you have it turned down too.
It is trial by error, I have had GKF with discus no problems, yet others have. I guess it is all a size, breeding & temperament thing.
[quote:9884ddacce]But discus dont like it much below that. Its not like they were really that new, they have been there for a few weeks[/quote:9884ddacce]
How many weeks has the tank been running, and how often have the fish been added? Neons are very sensitive to changes in water quality.
As for this comment
[quote:9884ddacce]Ok recently i went to a LFS and they had neons on sale. I have always been under the presumption that Neons have a tendancy to die because i have never been to an LFS and not seen atleast one floating around. [/quote:9884ddacce] I would change where you shop then too.
Frenchy :D
[quote:2422885561]Personally the water restrictions line is a crock of sh#t, the people in power have known about the pending water problem for years yet have chosen to do nothing,[/quote:2422885561]
Thats easy for you to say Frenchy, if you're on the Gold Coast. It doesnt matter what the people in power do or say, the fact is, we are nearly out of water,(or maybe Peter Beattie was standing on the moon a couple of weeks ago and not in the Wivenhoe Dam).
If we dont get some decent rain soon we are going to be in trouble, and thats a fact, so I dont think wasting 100 litres of drinking water on two pancake shaped fish the size of a 50 cent piece is a real good idea.
I personally havent done a water change for 4 months, my fish are growing healthy and alive. When I had Discus I changed water every two weeks 10% their temp was 24 degrees, one night the heater broke and the temp went down to 10 degrees, I never lost one.
I think most people in Brisbane are doing the right thing regardless of the politics, I think we as fish keeping hobbiests have got the potential to waste a hell of a lot of water, in my opinion if we dont do the right thing and try to conserve water, our hobby might get a bit of a kick in the arse, so lets at least try to do the right thing.
Theo
Jadels,
I am with you - it has been a good 5-10 years since I last saw a decent neon. the breeding appears to have become so poor, that they keel over at the slightest thing. I would suggest keeping an eye but wouldn't be sure of it being the BGK and not just the neons.
Cardinal, due to the fact they are harder to breed, do not seem to have suffered in breeding to the same extent as neons and are a lot better - still ya gatta buy from the right place. I have had cardinals that I couldn't kill and if I told on here what I did with them there would be shoc at the mistreatment forced by a rapid movement and still they lived on , and I have had them die within 6 months.
Temperature wise cardinals are a better match to discus too. I might have to set up my tank the same as my old one, Discus, cardinals, rummy nos a pair or two of rams and a few checkerboards.. The perfect tank fpr a living room after a long day with a nice glass of red or two, anyway i digress.
Neons evil - Cardinals good.
Steve
I have had my tank set up and running for a bit over 8 months now and i think it is fairly established. I recently have done a bit of fish changing but before that it was very stable. I got rid of an angel and a few suckers and bought a Discus. then about 2 weeks later i bought neons and 2 weeks later they started to die - which were the fat and slower ones probably cos Ghosty could catch them a bit easier?? Now i havnt lost any in about 3 days and i bought a little friend for my discus on the weekend hehe (i thought i had enough but it was so cute and kept saying "jade buy me" so i did).
My fish are not 50c size!! 1 is just about 2.5-3inches and the other is 50c sizeish. I recently went to the hinze dam and there is plenty of water for me to waste.. living on the gold coast and all. And when i was on the sunny coast i lived on the water supply which was 98% capacity and we had tank water anyway, hows that the water lines went past my house yet they couldnt run them in... I would also like people in Noosa on town water to be aware that i swim my horses in the water they drink :P
Anyways thats enough from me.No need to start a riot in this thread. Everything appears to be a happy family in my community.. Ghosty just wanted to trim down the stock a little hehe