QLD Cichlid Group Forum

As some of you will know
2 weeks back i got  white spot and lost most of my big breeders

Last night 1 of my young dolphins just went nuts and died

And now I'm losing my humpheads 1 or 2 a day
I'm adding twice the amount of cems to the water
But still it keeps hapning

So If I was you guys i would age your water first then treat it
And hopfully this won't happen to you

Well good luck

Andrew

I dont even add neutraliser to my water, and it comes straight from the tap,,,,, lots of tangs, malawis, etc, i cant ever remember having whitespot, so all is good my way and i am not too far from you! you havent added new fish have you! or somethig similar, i am not sure if its your water, what sort of chems are you adding! and dont go to heavy handed with chems, can do more harm than good sometimes? Are you trying to buffer your water with chems, or is it the neutriliser and whitespot chems?? if you are adding heaps of this stuff roo you are probably stressing the fish out more!!! hope all gets better for you soon!!!

I was going to say the same thing, if the water is that bad then surely there would be a heap of posts with people having the same problem.

There is something wrong with what is happening to your fish. The way the young Dolphin died leads me to poisioning or it coped a blow from another fish.

Is your house old, as in your water lines may be contaminated? eg;Hot water taps are copper? I only use cold water tap. Anyone in your house using any sprays? Or your neighbours, as in pesticides in garden? How often do you water changes & how much water? How do you clean your filters? Is there a bully in the tank causing stress?

The thing is something isn't right, there could be just one thing going wrong, you have to go through or your steps & see what it is.

Frenchy :D

I have not got any new fish since the last auctions
And i only put neutraliser in my water and I don't use water from the hot water taps and i don't think there is much coper in my water because the snails are going ramped in my tanks

I have not sprayed any poisands in the house for agars
and I don't clean the filters  when i do a water change
That would be asking for trouble and I use a neutraliser with strescoat

so your gess is as good as yours

Andrew

How often do you do water changes & how much of the water do you change?
How do you clean your filters?
Have you had the water tested at all?

Frenchy :D

I do a water change on the growing fish once a week and on The biger fish every 2 weeks

I only take out about 20 lites form each tank witch is about 20% less on 6 foot
The filters are cleaned in there own water from the tank about midweek after a water change if they need it
I only clean the canister filters every now and than whan the water flow slows down
And I test for ph every 4 days of so i don't have a test kit for the rest

So do you have any other idears?

O ya the tanks arn't over crowed

andrew

Yep I do. Get your water tested for Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrates.

Frenchy :D

Ok Tanks for ya help I will get that tested tomorrow

Andrew

Hi all,

May i know what is the problem with the hot water system runnung through copper pipe???

Cheers :wink:

Most houses use copper pipes in their  hot water systems
and copper can be toxic to fish
Tom

Andrew

Andrew, thanks!

My house id built in 2004 and i think they do use copper pipe for hot water.

But i do use it when water change  :oops:  :oops:

I think something may have happened to the water,
I just did a 50% water change on all my tanks, they get that every week, and in 3 hours, a whole tankful (~40 zebra danios) are dead, the other 5 tanks are fine, but all these guys are dead, their tank was topped up over about an hour, and their danios, they're supposed to be tough! The only thing I can think of is the water...
someone mentioned a while back that they were adding double chlorine, is that true?

Did you dechlorinate the water? Was the water going into the tank the same ph? 50% of water at a different ph, will shock your fish.

Frenchy :D

Yes the councel has doubled the chlorine in the water because it is so low to make it ok for us to drink. Times like this i am glad I use rain water

Water in the pine shire is about 7to 8 pl so its fine for Malawies

they get a 50% water change everyweek, so the pH should have been the same as that from the tap :?
and I dechlorinated double (to cope with the double chlorine)
but all the other tanks are fine

[quote:9494fa3fa5]so the pH should have been the same as that from the tap[/quote:9494fa3fa5]
Why?

The reasoning behind my comment, is that if all other tanks are fine, what is different to the danio tank. They all got the same water. There are plenty of factors that can alter the ph in a tank water, even in a week.

Some water conditioners have how many parts per million of chlorine they treat. You should be able to get off the council the realitive parts per million out of the tap.
Don't forget the brissie people have chloramines in their water too.

Frenchy :D

I cant believe the amount of people still using water straight from the tap and then blaming the council for fish deaths.
The council treats water to be fit for human consumption not for fish.
Its really very simple and been explained on here a million times, if you want to minimize fish deaths, age your water, and if you dont want your fish to die, age your water, and if you dont want to lose all your fish age your water.If you dont want diseases age your water.
Theo

What was that Theo :?:  :?:  :?:

Oooohhhh, Age your water :!:  :idea:  :lol:

I age mine too.

Frenchy :D

And if you want to save money, age your water, and if you claim to want to make life comfortable for your fish, age your water. Oh, and stop doing so many water changes, and definately not 50%.
Will someone please explain to me in an intelligent way, how doing a 50% water change with chlorinated water of a different temperature, is somehow beneficial to fish.
Theo

I tested the pH (obviously after the water change, but some difference should still have been noted), same as the tap water,
by age, do you mean airate for a few days in a big barrel?, when I can afford and have space for a pond or several barrels, I shall look into that, my dechlorinator does chloramines as well,I shall look up the ppm tomorrow,

I still can't explain why they died though, the 5 other tanks with the same danios (from the same spawn) had more or = water changes (that probably rules out anything in the water anyway), exactly the same food and everything, yet they are fine :?
the dead ones had red marks down thier belly, does that point to anything?

Yeah, I'm a bit confused about what you mean by age'ing water?

Do you mean adding buffers salts and prime etc and letting it sit for a little while, OR just aearating "non-addative" water and letting it sit?

Cheers Mitch

[quote:618de04228="DeagonTheo"] Oh, and stop doing so many water changes, and definately not 50%.
Will someone please explain to me in an intelligent way, how doing a 50% water change with chlorinated water of a different temperature, is somehow beneficial to fish.
Theo[/quote:618de04228]

they are growout tanks, I was under the impression that 30-50% was common for fast growout?
they are quite heavily stocked as well, so I feel it helps keep the ammonia down, but I make sure the water is the same temperature (within a degree or so). I shall try and do 20% twice a week, I have more time now, so that should be fine

Aging means putting tap water in a barrel or tank or what have you, and leaving it for at least two days, preferably with a small pump, just to move the water around a bit, thats it.
You can buy a two hundred litre plastic drum for around $20-to $25, a small pump for around $10 to $20. When you look at the amount of dollars people lose in fish, I would say that that is a pittance.
 I bought 2, 70 litre drums today for $25.
A breeding pair of Peppermint Bristlenose around $300, a pair of Discus around $200-$300.
I would say to most people, you really cant afford to not age your water, but if you want to keep blasting your fish with a cold stream of poisonous gas, and feel good about doing so, than by all means, just keep traumatising your fish, I'm sure they wont mind.
Have a good day.
Theo

Where can you buy a barrel?
do you heat the water when it is ageing?

thanks
Kathryn

Theo, you're saying you add no additives at all (in the sense of chlorine removal)?


Cheers Mitch

I have a black barrel 120lts.
So I...
Fill up Barrel with water
To this I add a little dash prime {I got a heap of prime cheap one time}
6 tablespoons of Epsom Salts
6 Teaspoons of Baking Soda
6 Teaspoons of Marine Salt
I then add an air stone & let the pump run till the next day, or whenever I do water change.

This is how I do my Tangy's, Malawis 1/2. I should be a TV Chef  :lol:

Frenchy :D

[quote:fbbe2da916]Theo, you're saying you add no additives at all (in the sense of chlorine removal)? [/quote:fbbe2da916]
Leaving the water out for a few days should remove the chlorine. In my case its the airation.
Running the water through a shower head connection should be enough to rid the chlorine too.
Brissie people should add something to the water as Chloramines are lethal to fish even in small doses. Some species of fish{eg;Malawis} can handle small amounts of Chlorine.

Another note, check the water conditioners, some only remove Chlorine & don't remove Chloramines.

Frenchy :D

We'll have to give you your own timeslot Frenchie" The Naked French Chef".
I personally don't add anything whatsoever to my tanks or aging water, the money you save on Dechlorinater, gives you the money to buy drums, hehe.

The problem with breeding fish in a particular type of water, means that when you sell them, other people have to try to mimick your water. I believe its better to let fish adjust to the local water supply, saves a lot of headaches and calculations, and believe me they do adjust.

Drums and other equipment can be bought from markets, especially Caboolture Markets, its a fantastic place for anything you're looking for.

And no you dont have to heat the water while aging, just make sure its roughly(within a couple of degrees) the same temperature before adding it to your tanks.

Okay, now that I've told you all my secrets for successfull and inexpensive fish keeping, I'll pass the hat around.
Theo

Cheers Theo !

Your information is very appreciated.

Cheers Mitch

Interesting age water yet not to bother about chloramines. Why age the water at all then, chlorine which is less of a threat. eg; Malawis could handle upto roughly 30% water change of chlorine water. Quoted from some book. I would say that figure, would depend on the water supply. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't chloramines lethal to fish :? {I read that somewhere too}
[quote:d084c09145]The problem with breeding fish in a particular type of water, means that when you sell them, other people have to try to mimick your water. I believe its better to let fish adjust to the local water supply, saves a lot of headaches and calculations, and believe me they do adjust. [/quote:d084c09145]
People buffer water for different reasons,
One reason is that I have had to buffer my water to keep a particular species of fry alive. Alot of people use some sort of buffer, calcium carb as substract or media..... I use buffers more as a just in case, keep the water stable & the home brew is cheap too. All ingredients easily obtained from the supermarket.
A certain area of brissie has very soft water so to keep Africans & the like they have to buffer.
My ph dosent change much at all, all I am doing is raising the gh & kh of my water, therefore making it more stable. When I used to be fussy about testing water, I noticed the gh & kh sometimes varied out of the water supply.

But hey, this is works well for me & I know what Theo does works well for him too. Go figure  :lol: The joys of fish keeping  :roll:  

ps; Do I have to be naked :?:

Frenchy :D

Frenchy, you're right about buffers, but I find that some Calcium Carbonate mixed in with the gravel does just as well, and if you dont use gravel, a nylon bag with some coral or a bag with calcium carbonate, will suffice.

But hey, if you want to use the salts etc, thats okay too, I've got all the stuff and use it sometimes if I need some water in a hurry, or theres a Ph crash.

To any newbies out there, read all the books and get info off the net, it will give you a better understanding of the hobbie and water conditions, but remember they are just guides, fish are fairly tollerant and can stand a reasonably wide variety of conditions.

There are two things they absolutely cant tollerate, and thats Chlorine and sudden changes.

Theo

wether you age your water or not you should still use a nutrilizer.
Chloramine: This substance is sometimes used as a bactericide in municipal water supplies. It it poisonous to fish, but can be removed with many commercially available dechlorinating additives. Unlike chlorine, it will not evaporate from water by itself.

This is direct form the BCC website:

"Water for home aquariums

Brisbane Water uses chloramine to disinfect water for drinking purposes. This is toxic to aquatic life.

You need to remove all traces of chloramine when using tap water in your aquarium. You can do this by:

boiling the water for 10 minutes and letting it cool to room temperature, or
ageing and exposing water to sunlight for at least two days, or
buying de-chlorination agents from aquarium shops"

Michael

The Council must have been reading my posts. :lol:
Theo

[quote:e404eab871="mickvick"]This is direct form the BCC website:

"boiling the water for 10 minutes and letting it cool to room temperature, or
ageing and exposing water to sunlight for at least two days, or
buying de-chlorination agents from aquarium shops"

Michael[/quote:e404eab871]

Theoretically, the chlorine and ammonia that forms chloramine will disassociate at a set rate for a given temperature and volume to surface area ratio.  The upshot being, the chlorine will separate from the ammonia into Cl2 molecules which can be liberated via "normal" aging techniques (ie/ agitating your water).  

Ammonia is a different beastie only because Brisbane Water (and the other council water treatment agencies) typically overdose with ammonia in order to ensure there is enough to bond with the Chlorine to form Chloramine.  So the actual amount could be unknown as the additional ammonia eventually ends up as a high nitrate reading.

There is some evidence (although it is sparse on the internet) to suggest that ammonia gas (which is injected into the water stream) can also be degassed from the water with time.

So what we have is three things.  
1. The time (and energy) needed to break the Chloramine bond.
2. The time (and energy) needed to offgas the Chlorine.
3. The time (and energy) needed to offgas the Ammonia.

In most cases from the evidence that we as fishkeepers have, is that really only 1 and 2 are the important factors as our filtration can deal with number 3.  

So to agree with Theo, yes, age your water.  Add energy (ie/ make it mobile via a pump or airstone).  Heat it as well as warmer water holds less gasses (and adds energy and makes it closer in temp to your aquariums).

caio
Graeme

My Advise would to use a good nutrilizer that covers Chlorine / chloramine
and heavy metals and for adding water with a temp a couple of degree different to tank is not an issue at 20-30% water change. personaly i would be looking at what is going wrong instead of blamming the water supply. if you are using a good nutrilizer, the one Ben sells is ok for Chlorine / chloramine as i used it for a long time i am presently trying a new product out that does heavey metals as well. just make sure you shake it good. and for white spot invest in a UV.

You know its funny, no matter how much proof or scientific evidence you can give some people, they are just not going to listen.

THE WORLD IS ROUND.

Just go and spend a heap on a UV sterilizer, why, if you do things properly in the first place, you will hardly ever see whitespot again.

Isn't it funny how whitespot always turns up after a water change or bringing in new fish. The chances of getting whitespot in any other way are virtually zero(thats if you are spending a little bit of time looking after your tanks).

Hm, I wonder whats cheaper, a 200 litre drum or a UV Sterilizer.

Theo

Theo, I just can't understand how enough energy is provided to break the chemical bonds. What form is the chlorine in? Cl2?

I'm not having a go, you have had great success and i'm willing to attempt it (cheaper !!!) but it's just the understanding? Why doen't ammonia/ammonim ions dissappear? We are heating the water and agitating it?


Mitch

[quote:9c5ce463fa="DeagonTheo"]

Hm, I wonder whats cheaper, a 200 litre drum or a UV Sterilizer.[/quote:9c5ce463fa]

the drum , and theres one going cheap, set-up and ready to go here http://www.qldcichlid.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5241 :)

[quote:37b8969ae5="mjscookie"]Theo, I just can't understand how enough energy is provided to break the chemical bonds. What form is the chlorine in? Cl2?

I'm not having a go, you have had great success and i'm willing to attempt it (cheaper !!!) but it's just the understanding? Why doen't ammonia/ammonim ions dissappear? We are heating the water and agitating it?


Mitch[/quote:37b8969ae5]

The bond between NH2 and Cl2 is relatively unstable, but the chemical NH2Cl will persist in water longer than just Cl2 or HOCl (Hypochlorite).  Hence it is used in the water treatment for potable water.  Also it has been found not to form nasty cancer causing chlorocarbons (like chloroform etc), other rather, to cause significantly less.

So the small amount of energy added by agitation will "crack" the bond between the NH2 and the Cl allowing the two chemicals to be dissolved into the water.

Now any gas dissolved into water will naturally diffuse out of the water if the concentration in the atmosphere is less than that in the water.  It's the exact same principle in getting O2 into the water and CO2 out of the water.  Except this time it is Cl2 and NH2.  Cl2 has a relatively short time (days) of persistence.  NH2 longer.

Personally I have been using a couple of 4' tanks (200 l each - although one temporarily is holding some rainbows) to age my water for a week minimum.  In each are a gravel filter (ie/ a filter filled with 3mm gravel and shell grit rather than filter wool or any other media) and a heater.  I haven't had an outbreak of any disease for about 6 years (last time was a white spot outbreak from not quarantining some siamensis) and before that about 5 years (velvet, I have never seen it before in my life and had several casualties in some blue eyes before I worked out what was happening....again, some new b/n introduced without quarantining).

caio
Graeme

I'm not going to say much more on this matter, and I'm not a chemist, but I've been keeping fish for a long long time, and in that time I've lost a lot of fish,and I've experimented a lot and learnt a lot. I cant in all honesty explain what happens to the Chlorine and Chloramine, but what I can tell you is, after about two days most of both are gone.

Graeme gave a pretty good explanation of what happens and I can back that up from experience. Me personally, I would only use a dechlorinator as a last resort.

There are two ways of doing things, the wrong way and the right way, unfortunately I cant force anybody to see the light, so its up to you to choose. Just remember some time in the future, when you lose a lot of fish after doing a water change with water straight from the tap, that all the info was here, you just chose the wrong path.

Theo

PS: I forgot, Chlorine and Ammonia are gasses, so the bond would be very volatile.

Theo,

Don't you get sick of this arguement.  :lol:
I envy your patience everytime this topic comes up.
Years and Years of experience mean nothing to some people.
I guess next time they lose a tank full of fish they may re-examine this topic and choose another path.

Just keep teaching the grasshoppers, master, and one day you will be rewarded. :bows head in gratitude:

Just a side note a drastic change in diet can also bring on whitespot.
Cheers Brian.

Thanks Phil, we can only but try, though I am getting tired. :cry:
Theo

Sorry that was safe, the conditioner I use. It claims to remove Ammonia, Chloramine & Chlorine. I picked up 3 containers from Bill Smiths with his changing hands sale some months ago. $5 each 8O & I haven't even gone through 1/2 of the first container yet.

Oh Mick this comes from the Central Coast Water Auth2ority

[quote:945cf2e6f9]Won't letting water sit for a few days remove chloramines from tank or pond water?

No. Unlike chlorine, which dissipates when water sits for a few days, chloramines may take weeks to disappear. If you don't want to use a dechloraminating chemical, the next best solution is to install a granular activated filter and allow sufficient contact time. [/quote:945cf2e6f9]

Does anyone really believe what councils say?

Frenchy :D

N = 5
2Cl = 14
H = 1

Does this have and double/triple bonds?

From what I see, this is a strong oxidising agent - wouldn't this be useless almost immediately?

Is Cl being released as gas? Wouldn't it be just as likely to form HCl - giving our water a nice acidic edge (+ all the extra OH- ions in solution)

Cheers Mitch

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.php

As you can see from the article above, removing Chlorine and Chloramine is a time consuming and complicated subject, made even more complicated by the addition of neutralizers. Some of the alternatives are absolutely frighteningly expensive.

If you are at all worried by these scientific facts, make your life a lot more simple, buy a drum, leave the water in there for a week if you like, with agitation of course, and you wont have any problems whatsoever.

Theo

Theo - It suggests 2 methods of removal

Reducing agents
Activated charchol

I may have skipped a bit, but where is your method?

From the rxn, it appears you need some carbon source...


Edit - Theo, neutralisers don't complicate the matter, they make it simpler. What you are doing makes no chemical sense !!!

Mitch

Just to follow up on my pervious post -

see:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/chelmon/Rbowkeep.htm

I think this bit sums it up pretty well: "Chloramine is very stable and can not be easily driven off, even by heavy aeration. "

Just for the record. I use prime and always have. Until someone can provide me with some evidence that aeration is actually removing our little friends I suggest use use a neutraliser.

Edit - And, there is this thread- http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200210/msg00613.html

I can keep going if people want.

Edit (2).. I like this one: "Mike Barsotti, director of water quality and production at the Champlain Water District , said he is worried people may forget about the harmful effects of chloramines on fish. Fish owners will have to find a new method of making aquarium-safe water.

"What we have been doing at St. Mike's," McCabe said, "is taking big tanks of water and bubbling some air through them for a couple of days. The chlorine is gone in a couple of days. This won't work with chloramines."

see - http://journalism.smcvt.edu/defender/03.01.06/water.htm

Mitch

I'm assuming you don't have chloramines in your water to start with...If not it appears what you're doing is correct.

If you want, I can draw a nice little diagram, use terms as free energy, activation energy, use an analogy of climbing up a hill but not being able to make it to the top....


If your theory is true, why doesn't my chloramines break down while it's being pumped through the pipes. Imagine how little chloramines we have when the pipes from the dams get heated on a hot day. Surely there is more free enrgy in that system then a power head/air pump?


I'm going out tonight in search of my local council worker, who obviously tops up my chloramine level at my mains each night. No wonder our roads are falling apart, poor buggers have to work all night.

Mitch

Thats why I made this point earlier,

[quote:40aa0edf1a]Interesting age water yet not to bother about chloramines. Why age the water at all then, chlorine which is less of a threat. eg; [color=blue:40aa0edf1a]Malawis could handle upto roughly 30% water change of chlorine water[/color:40aa0edf1a]. Quoted from some book. I would say that figure, would depend on the water supply. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't [color=blue:40aa0edf1a]chloramines lethal to fish[/color:40aa0edf1a] [/quote:40aa0edf1a]
2 parts of that I just posted{in blue} came from Ad Konnings books. 30 years experience with Malawi cichlids, Biologist by profession...thats pretty good experience.
It states; [quote:40aa0edf1a]You can spray the fresh water into the aquarium, which will drive off the chlorine{a gas} dissolved in water. Chloramines cannot be removed by aeration and should therefore be removed or absorbed by specially developed chemicals, the so called water conditioners....{goes on a bit more then}....The water can also be cleaned by passing it over activated carbon. [/quote:40aa0edf1a]

Although with carbon, factors like contact time, freshness & the type of carbon can affect the effectiveness.

[quote:40aa0edf1a]I'm going out tonight in search of my local council worker, who obviously tops up my chloramine level at my mains each night. No wonder our roads are falling apart, poor buggers have to work all night. [/quote:40aa0edf1a] :lol: & good point too.  :idea:

Thats why chorine is added at different stages of the line{Gold coast water for example}. Because chlorine breaks down easy.
http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/t_gcw.asp?PID=155

Frenchy :D

i think weve lost sight of the original argument of whats going wrong with the water. It seems that weve recently had a few people having problems either with white spot or just fish croaking it. Like most its hard to explain especially when there appears to be no major variation in the methods used.

Like all the beginners in this forum, I get confused fish shop say one thing the local breeders tell you something different. But i have noticed one common thread that the losses have occured even with the nuetraliser being used.

All i can say is  better safe than sorry, I was told the same thing about chloride not being easily gotten rid of. That aeration was no longer enough, and started putting in nuetraliser as well. Touch wood, I havent had any of the problems mentioned, but i know one thing im going to inest in some barrels very soon, the water conditions are only going to get worse as the droughts goes deeper.Who knows what is entering our water and in what concentrates.

Remember, we have asked peoples opinions and their methods. So please listen with an open mind, I know a lot of the information I have picked up has saved me many fish and many dollars.Each to their own I say.
FOr example  how many use the rift salt and how many still use Bi card and rock salt. that argument has been going for years

Tks   peter

Perhaps, we just have lines of fish that are not only be selected for by colour and shape, but perhaps for chloramine tolerance without us knowing......



White spot, from what I understand can lay dormant and then attack stressed fish. Are your neutralisers old? Did you stuff up with the measurements, did you add water to a bucket, add required amount of neutraliser, agitate, sit for about 1/2 a minute and then add...

Too many variables to single out THE WATER. How many people frequent the forums? How often do fish die? How amny people does it need to happen to to be evidence...I don't know. But you can read a statistics book if you want.


As a newbie, listen to the shop. They wan't all your fish to die. After you're experienced lots of fish dying, you'll either sell off your tank real cheap or ask someone who's not thinking about $$$ or how long til they can knock off and pay the rent. Listen to the people of these forums. We may have contrasting veiws. But thats life. Choose the one that makes more sense and follow that. If it fails, try another. Lifes about learning and we all learn from our mistakes.



Chlorine is easily gotten rid of ! It's chloramine that isn't !!!


Why bother with barels? If you want to expel dissolved gases, add salts and buffer etc. and feel better do it. Otherwise, it's up to you. A good neutraliser if used properly will do the job.



Our drinking water is under constant survallience. If thats something wrong it's recified quickly. Too me, good enough for me to drink, good enough for my fish to live in (when treated with neutralisers). If anything nasty gets in the system, my fish are easily replaced, I aren't !



Bi carb/rock salt. How to use it. Buy a good test kit, read what the lake parameters are, and attempt to match it. Won't get it right straight away, but after a few WC's you'll have the []'s (concerntrations) all perfect. There is really no debate - except bi-carb and rock salts WONT provide trace elements and other goodies some of our more expensive buffers have.


Hope that helps.

Cheers Mitch

Yep it has drifted away a bit :oops:

I feel I did answer the question at the start. I asked questions of the person, to get what I thought to be the answer. If water changes of 20litres a fortnight are being done, then that is not enough. A 6 foot tank was mentioned. I came to posioning by the large number of deaths, outbreak of diseases & the way one was discribed to off died.

I asked the person to get his water tested to see if that was the source of the problem, as in Nitrates, Nitrites & Ammonia.

Firstly;[quote:ee36c23ec8]As a newbie, listen to the shop. They wan't all your fish to die.[/quote:ee36c23ec8] That comment is full of shit, or maybe you just visit the wrong shops. The object is sales, that you are right. A happy fish keeper is liable to get MTS. A happy fish keeper will also tell there friends too. I used to be a lfs person, I never want anyones fish to die.

As for the home brew, I use marine salt rather than rock salt.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

Frenchy :D

I'm just happy we have had a debate. It's not that often we get a good thread going with plenty of input and ideas....


I'm probably too early though (waits for Grummy bear to lock this baby)

Mitch

I know you read the article Mitch but may have skimmed over these bits.

[quote:5a67a21e95]Thiosulfate is also equally suited to dechlorinating free chlorine in water, and it has gained wide use in marine and freshwater aquaria. Unfortunately, the ammonia that is produced as a result of the reaction is still toxic. Consequently, thiosulfate alone is not always adequate for eliminating toxicity from chloramine.[/quote:5a67a21e95]


[quote:5a67a21e95] The reaction of ammonia with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product (aminomethanesulfonate; shown below).15 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- à H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

Even more complicated is the reaction of hydroxymethanesulfonate with chloramine, or chlorine (as Cl2 or HOCl). In this case, the products that are formed have not been established. [/quote:5a67a21e95]

It seems to me that these Forums are great for debate, but nobody really absorbs or takes anything away. People seem to be like Lemmings, it doesnt matter how many die, they just keep jumping over the cliff. I could stand up there with a sign saying you are going to die, and they would jump anyway.

I would suggest that the nonbelievers do some tests(which I and many others have done on numerous occasions) or could it be that we are carrying out tests all the time, and our fish are paying the price. Regardless, do the tests, and when you get the results put them up here, so everybody can tear the evidence to shreds, its fun.

Theo

PS: Oh, and forget Carbon

[quote:d45b5d8c25]That comment is full of shit, or maybe you just visit the wrong shops. The object is sales, that you are right. A happy fish keeper is liable to get MTS. A happy fish keeper will also tell there friends too. I used to be a lfs person, I never want anyones fish to die. [/quote:d45b5d8c25]

Gee I hate it when I have to agree with Frenchy.  I hope this doesn't happen too often in my time here :lol:

I walked into my local LFS and I am a convert as I overheard the owner selling a goldfish salts block saying and I quote "you should't need another one of these yet - something must be wrong with your water - could you bring me in a sample"  I will buy form him even if his prices are a bit dearer - actually I haven't even bothered to check his prices against other stores.  (And he had some rocket killies - only males now - I got the only female)

In terms of how we treat our water I know people who are much better aquarists than me who age there water and keep good fish - and people who do the tap straight in and chemical treat - generally double dosing and keep good fish.  I guess there are different ways to achieve the same en.  I am from the stick the hose in and dump a load of Prime in and double dose.  But I do not stock highly - e.g I have got a pair of Aggies in a 6 footer with only an algae clean up crew.  

With white spot be aware there does seem to be different "strains".  

Traditionally white spot is a relatively simple secondary disease pointing to a bigger problem.  (Damn Frenchy was right again when he said initially get the water tested).  

There is however a nasty white spot around that will wipe out even an experienced aquarists fish.  I have posted about treating this before and won't clog this line with a repeat of that info.

Steve

p.s. Good to see a vigorous exchange of ideas.  Great thread.

[quote:b9140f1ff0="mjscookie"]Theo, I just can't understand how enough energy is provided to break the chemical bonds. What form is the chlorine in? Cl2?

I'm not having a go, you have had great success and i'm willing to attempt it (cheaper !!!) but it's just the understanding? Why doen't ammonia/ammonim ions dissappear? We are heating the water and agitating it?


Mitch[/quote:b9140f1ff0]

Mitch you do realise that the bond between a single Cl and the N in NH2 is relatively low (technically there are three "chloramines" in potable water - monochloramine (NH2Cl), dichloramine (NHCl2), trichloramine (NCl3) - NH2Cl is the most commonly formed though - depends on the pH which is one of the reasons why SEQ water is tightly controlled to 7.4).  In chemical terms it is unstable.  ie/ left to it's own devices it will disassociate.  Adding energy, any energy is enough to cause the bond to begin to break.  An analogy (not altogether a good one, but it will do) is the dissolved CO2 in soft drink.  It is over saturated.  Left to it's own devices it will naturally dissolve out in say 4 or 5 hours.  However, drop the same bottle, and you have almost an explosive release of CO2 for a minimal energy input.

Don't confuse the word "stable" for the chemical bond.  NH2Cl is an _unstable_ molecule.  But it stays in potable water longer than Cl2, hence in this regard it is more "stable" than Cl2.  Note that the Cl2 bond is very stable, yet Cl2 is "unstable" when dissolved in water.  Don't confuse the many usages of "stable".

What the principle difference between Cl2 and NH2Cl is persistance.  Both have similar bioefficiency (ie/ bacteria killing power, although Cl2 is more reactive, hence "better") however NH2Cl stays in the water a lot longer (nominally 14-21 days versus Cl2's 5-7 days).  Chemistry text books tell you this (although I cannot give you a link as the internet is surprisingly short on detail).

Agitation adds energy and turns over a water column.  This is basic chemistry here, not rocket science.

Councils mainly parrot the same information the world over as it is the accepted wisdom.  Most fish keepers want to use water from the tap instantly.  Councils recognise this and their advice suits this requirement.  Hence why they have odd advice about "boiling" water (who do you know in the hobby hwo does this??) and their recommendations against carbon filtering (most home filters pass water too quickly through them).  Most received wisdom about chloramine is that "it is toxic to fish" without actually detailing why and exactly how.  Even wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine) is short on detail.

Out of interest NH2Cl causes haemolysis in fish (and most aquatic creaturs) by being absorbed directly into the bloodstream via the gills.  So it causes anemia which reduces a fishes ability to absorb oxygen.  It is the same reason why chloramines need to be removed for dialysis machines.

BTW, one of the more detailed councils is San Fransico's (which is a link from Wiki).  They say this about removing chloramine: (http://sfwater.org/detail.cfm/MC_ID/13/MSC_ID/166/MTO_ID/399/C_ID/2225/ListID/1)

"Q: How much time will it take for both chloramine and chlorine to dissipate and at what ppm level? Can chloramine and/or ammonia be boiled out of water or dissipated by letting the water sit?

A: While both chlorine and chloramine residuals decrease with time. chloramine takes longer than free chlorine. The chloramine decomposition rate is also affected by the exposure to air and sunlight. Chloramine and ammonia, like chlorine, will eventually dissipate completely over time but it is not practical to let the water sit for these to dissipate. Unlike chlorine, which only takes a few days to dissipate when left to stand, chloramine may stay in water for a few weeks (SFPUC) and ammonia remains in the water even longer. It usually takes days for chloramine to be dissipated when exposed to air and sunlight.

Boiling the water will remove chlorine but it will take much longer to remove chloramine. There are chemicals available that quickly and effectively remove chloramine."

So SEQ councils say "don't boil" not because it doesn't work, but because it isn't practical.  Likewise for putting the chloraminated water in a drum, and agitating it for a week.

Out of interest, Rod Pick (one of the most experienced fishkeepers I have ever met in my life) just agitates his water.

caio
Graeme

I work for a local government in south east queensland.  One of the earlier posts which alarmed me said that

'Councils had doubled the amount of chlorine or chloramine added to its treatment processes'.

I decided to check to see if there was any truth to this comment.  I hope to have an official release from the water agency for my Council soon (media relations rules etc), but without naming names, I have been informed that BCC and the shire to its immediate north have not altered their dosing programs at all as a result of the lower water levels.  BCC uses chlormamine (mono) to treat its water while the other council uses chlorine.  The other Council's concentration of free chlorine will typically vary between 0.1mg/L to up to 2mg/L.  The main factor affecting this concentration is the water user's proximity to either the water treatment plant or a disinfection booster station.  I guess that what this highlights is that where you live can be a contributing factor to what you may need to do to treat your water, but if you have been undertaking a treatment regime, and not moved, and something is happening to your fish, then it probably isn't going to be the water.

For what it's worth, I don't add chemicals to my water but I will be probably looking at implementing an ageing process similar to that described by Theo earlier in this thread.  Theo, will a six pack cover the cost of me coming out to look at your setup?

Cheers
Neil

Theo -

Isn't the neutralisers acting as a catalyst; speeding up a reaction that would naturally occur? I'm assuming that the producers of these products know what the by-products are?

So, ammonia is produced (or actually they are not exactly sure what is being produced)? Isn't this what is being produced in your non-catalysed reaction
(a qucik stab - you get h20, ammonia and Cl).

Except, your reaction takes upto 21 days to proceed to completion. So from what I see, yes aging your water by your technique provided enough energy to remove chlorine, and also enough energy to remove chloramines, but the removal of chloramines in VERY slow.

You then add water with chloramines to your system wherby this reaction continues for ~21 days, wheryby you are getting chlorine and ammonia by products.


Now, this question arises, why aren't your fish dead?
1) They could be fairly tolerant to chloramine
2) You don't recieve chloramine in your water supply
3) You recieve chloramine in your supply, but it's at such a low concerntration, that it's effectively all removed by your method (howerver not completely)

Cheers Mitch

As I said before, I'm not a chemist, I'm a hobbiest, with a lot of experience. I have bred a lot of fish, among these are Gold Comps, Black Calvus and Siamese Fighters, these are all egg layers and the resulting fry almost microscopic and Fighters and Calvus are very touchy as far as water conditions go.

My area in Brisbane receives Chloramines in the water supply, I know this, because the Council says so. About 18 months ago I ran out of aged water and broke one of my taboos, I put straight tap water into the sytem very slowly and added nuetralizer, within 5 minutes and less than 2 percent of the water changed, the Black Calvus fry started spinning around(not very Chloramine tollerant), I immediately stopped adding water. I lost about 10 fry out of 100 plus. So I know I've got Chloramine in the water.

When I add aged water to the sytem, I do it as fast as my 1800 lph pump will allow me, I have never lost any fry or seen any spinning around. In the very small Calvus fry tanks I have done over a 50 percent water change this way with no ill effects.

Like I said, I'm not a chemist, I understand about water chemistry as far as the hobby goes, but thats about it. I do know what works.

Theo

Class dismissed

[quote:39f72cd3ba]I would say to most people, you really cant afford to not age your water, but if you want to keep blasting your fish with a cold stream of poisonous gas, and feel good about doing so, than by all means, just keep traumatising your fish, I'm sure they wont mind.
Have a good day.
Theo[/quote:39f72cd3ba]

so for what i understand all you need to do is take Theo advise and just age your water then blast them with Chloramines instead :lol:
your fish will love you for it. Ask Theo he knows apparently a good fish keeper but misleading information i beleave.
 thats the advise he is giving or did i misunderstand :?

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]Theo –
[/quote:7064f498f9]
Mitch,
I don't want to answer for Theo, but it appears that you are half responding to my post and as such I will jump in.  

Theo, please feel free to answer this as well

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
Isn't the neutralisers acting as a catalyst; speeding up a reaction that would naturally occur? I'm assuming that the producers of these products know what the by-products are?
[/quote:7064f498f9]

Most neutralisers such as Sodium Thiosulfate (Na2S2O3) only target the chlorine component by binding it up into hydrochloric acid and a salt.

Na2S2O3 + 4HOCl + H2O > 2NaHSO4 + 4HCl
Na2S2O3 + HOCl > Na2SO4 + S + HCl
2Na2S2O3 + HOCl > Na2S4O6 + NaCl + NaOH

Note that all these chemicals are normally "bad" for fish (sodium sulphate...)

Now how does it get this HOCl?  Because NH2Cl is dissolved in water which will have the Cl+ ions in association with H20 and a small amount will be HOCl.  Also NH2Cl + H20 <>  NH3 + HOCl is not stable hence the reaction proceeds in either direction (depending on pH, temperature etc).

Hence the Thiosulfate scavenges the HOCl leaving the NH3.  Which is why you often see people saying "It only removes the Chlorine".  This is true, it removes the HOCl (which is the normal form of oxidising agent chlorine is present in).  It doesn't remove the chloride ion from the water though, just changes it's chemical signature a bit.

So you answer your question, it doesn't act as a catalyst.  There is a chemical reaction occurring.

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
So, ammonia is produced (or actually they are not exactly sure what is being produced)? Isn't this what is being produced in your non-catalysed reaction
(a qucik stab - you get h20, ammonia and Cl).
[/quote:7064f498f9]

The "non-catalysed reaction" is simple chemistry.  To make chloramine, you add NH3 to HOCl at a particular concentration and temperature.  This creates NH2Cl (plus some water - for monochloramine).  But this molecule is chemically unstable.  It eventually (after a week or two or three depending on what the water it is in is doing) becomes NH3 + HOCl.  Of course, some of these will convert back into NH2Cl.  But as we are all familiar with "chlorine is emitted from water".  That is because HOCl scavenges it's H+ ion from water (so you end up with H + OH which typically with Na forms HOCl and NaOH), so you have a equilibrium of HOCl + HCl + H20 <> H20 + Cl2.  And the Cl2 eventually floats of into the atmosphere as it dissolves out of the water.

Since is all is a lossy system (ie/ Cl2 is lost all the time) adding energy (through agitation and heat) will encourage the stability of the reactions to break down.  Hence lots and lots of Cl2 is emitted.

So in "normal" chlorinated water, you only have one step.  In chloraminated water you have two steps, with the first perhaps double the time.

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
Except, your reaction takes upto 21 days to proceed to completion. So from what I see, yes aging your water by your technique provided enough energy to remove chlorine, and also enough energy to remove chloramines, but the removal of chloramines in VERY slow.
[/quote:7064f498f9]

If it takes (say) 5 days for chlorinated water to lose it's chlorine to equivalent to the local atmosphere, and it takes (say) 21 days for chloraminated water, it take 21-5 = 16 days for the "breakdown" of the chloramine to occur.

However with water aging, it normally takes a day (or less depending on total chlorine) for the chlorine to be lost.  So extrapolating this to chloramine, 21/5 = 4.2 days for the equivalent reaction.  Of course this depends on various factors but what it suggests is that a week of vigorous agitation will work.  This is something that many years of experience have told people.

Note that this doesn't take into account the NH3, but since this is also a dissolved gas (in association with water you get other reactions but this is by the by) and it wants also to come out of the water (as the atmosphere above the water normally is low in NH3  I am unclear how long this would take, but as my nitrate reading on my aged water is very, very low, I would suspect that it has been emitted.

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
Now, this question arises, why aren't your fish dead?
1) They could be fairly tolerant to chloramine
[/quote:7064f498f9]

Possible.  It is highly likely that our fish are more tolerant of dealing with low oxygen that we give them credit for.  I know that Australian native fish are tolerate of a wide range of conditions.

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
2) You don't recieve chloramine in your water supply
[/quote:7064f498f9]

Possible.  But Theo lives in Deagon.  Rod Pick lives in Robertson. I live in Ipswich.  Three different areas, three different concentrations of chloramine.  Yet the same method works.

[quote:7064f498f9="mjscookie"]
3) You recieve chloramine in your supply, but it's at such a low concerntration, that it's effectively all removed by your method (howerver not completely)
[/quote:7064f498f9]

In which case all the above chemistry works that much faster.

caio
Graeme

How can I be a good fish keeper, if I keep blasting my fish with Chloramines, wouldnt I be a bad fish keeper, and if I'm that bad, how come I've sold my fry all over Australia.
Theo

Theo you took it the wrong way i said you are a good fish keeper from what I have herd reports on but why not take some precautions from Chloramines that's all I am saying. we can all over look things and we all will at some time but we also need to be open for ideas and suggestions.
i beleave with evidence that i have read that the Chloramines need to be delt with. this is my choice and my opinion it is up to those who read to make up there own minds with the ideas given by all members and my choice is both if and when possible.
i too must have bad fish also as i run a UV
i too never had white spot before but for a little precaution why not.

[quote:a118137e3d]Possible. But Theo lives in Deagon. Rod Pick lives in Robertson. I live in Ipswich. Three different areas, three different concentrations of chloramine. Yet the same method works. [/quote:a118137e3d]

Beaudesert here.
Works for me too.
But I guess the combined experience of our fishkeeping isn't enough for some people. :roll:
I say each to their own. I KNOW it works so I will keep doing it and saving a little bit each time I do water changes and put it into new fish. :lol:

Sorry Steve{Gingerbeer} I will do better next time.

All information shows that chlorine is easily removed by airation.{we believe that} As for chloramines well, most studies say if you leave the water to sit then "can" take weeks.{some believe that}
Well chlorine can be removed by simply attaching a showerhead to the hose. Chloramine is highly unstable as a pure form. However its quite stable in dilute solution & this considerable stability is the basis of its applications.
If you were to believe the calculation shown earlier, 4.2 days give or take how many hours, days??? This is like the never ending story. :lol: I can see where everyone is coming from. Deagon can do his water how he likes. Maybe its a case of more arse than class, it works.  :lol: {tongue in cheek} The joys of fish keeping.  :roll:

[quote:7fe18c01bd]But I guess the combined experience of our fishkeeping isn't enough for some people.  :roll:   [/quote:7fe18c01bd] No need to roll your eyes Phil, I used Ad Konnings as my first source of reference, I would be silly not to follow his word, if I could, wouldn't I? Thanks all the same, I like to follow the book as best I can, so to speak.

The thing is, this post started because of a wrongly worded topic header.  Really, 20 litre water changes once a fortnight. One tank is 6 foot. Who would recommend that? ps; How did the water test go Andrew?

Also to becareful with neutralisers, If too much dechlorinating agent is added to the aquarium, it may bind up all of the oxygen in the water.

Frenchy :D

Well, this has certainly been a great thread, with some very intelligent input, there is a wealth of information here, I myself have learnt quite a bit. I suppose its up to the individual to use that info and choose a path.

I am of the opinion(and this is just my opinion, that Chlorine and Chloramine reduce water to a very raw state)that by aging the water(the longer the better)that we are somehow letting it get back to its original state, without adding more chemicals(nuetralizers) to upset the balance(Ammonia etc).

If however you feel that neutalizers are the way to go, I would still suggest the use of a drum or other receptacle, that way you can use Frenchies idea of  rolling your own homebrew, with the added chemicals, and still age your water.

Theo

Shakira, Shakira

I am not the biggest fan of calcium carb Theo. Plus once algae grows over the surface area of the carb it reduces its buffering capacity.

Frenchy :D

I'm not a great fan either either, but mixed up with Coffs Harbour Pebble it doesnt look too bad, and seems to work, I'm for an easy life.
Theo

[quote:4deea7bbbd]No need to roll your eyes Phil, I used Ad Konnings as my first source of reference, I would be silly not to follow his word, if I could, wouldn't I? Thanks all the same, I like to follow the book as best I can, so to speak.
[/quote:4deea7bbbd]

FFS Justin.......You read too much. :lol:  :lol:  :wink:  :lol:  :lol:
If what you are doing works, then keep doing it. No need to change on our account.
If it is not, as in the case of the person who started this thread, then it is time for a change. Is good to have options.

[quote:a1f2f551ba="DeagonTheo"]Well, this has certainly been a great thread, with some very intelligent input, there is a wealth of information here, I myself have learnt quite a bit. I suppose its up to the individual to use that info and choose a path.

I am of the opinion(and this is just my opinion, that Chlorine and Chloramine reduce water to a very raw state)that by aging the water(the longer the better)that we are somehow letting it get back to its original state, without adding more chemicals(nuetralizers) to upset the balance(Ammonia etc).

If however you feel that neutalizers are the way to go, I would still suggest the use of a drum or other receptacle, that way you can use Frenchies idea of  rolling your own homebrew, with the added chemicals, and still age your water.

Theo

Shakira, Shakira[/quote:a1f2f551ba]


I guess that pretty much wraps it up - Choose whatever method you want one or the other or a hybrid, as long as it works (your fish a happy) stick with it.

I have to agree, this has been a great thread. Anyone want to start a new one with another interesting issue so this forum can begin to resemble a forum NOT a weekend trader..

Now back to the original starter - Savageroo how'd your water tests go?

Cheers Mitch