Hello all,
I cannot work out what is wrong with a tank i got. I got it free from my boss and everything we put in it dies. tried cleaning it out with bleach, salt paste as well as bicarb and vinegar and still the fish we put in there die (goldfish lasted a week so we put in our electric yellows and they died in 8 hours) the water has been tested and it is fine.
We are getting a brand new tank now (dont want to risk killing more beautiful fish) but i was just wondering if anyone has any ideas on what it could be.
After the bleach it was cleaned out with neutaliser for a few day and rinsed so many times its not funny. everything in the tank was new and replaced after the first deaths (calcium carb, lava rocks, filter media the lot)
What a start to keeping cichlids :cry:
try leaving it out in the sun for a couple of weeks, with water in it and without water in it.
could be something in the silicon??
8 hours is a bit quick for a ammonia spike, but was the tank cycled properly?
As soon as i saw the word 'bleach' i cringed 8O
Is there a possibility that the bleach could have got into, or around, the silicon.
you need to give all details if you want help anyway go through this and see what you find.
How are you treating your water, how is the ph, GH , KH ammonia, nitrite, nitrate water temp. what filtration what substrate and how old is it how much food are you feeding them and is it suited how was the fish health to start with. where is the tank situated. has to be something other than the tank if you have rinsed well. Personally i think it is not the bleach and for getting in around the silicone tank would be about to leak.
thankyou for the responses,
Ok the water temp was at 26c, all the water tests were conducted by myself and a very reputable LFS on sunday before be brought the fish home. The levels were good between 0 and 0.1 ammonia, nitrite was low.
We started the tank weeks ago and put some local rocks in both this tank and our crayfish tank. we cycled the tank and put the rocks in the crayfish tank the same day we put the first lot of yellows in the big tank. Both the cray and the yellows died that day. We cleaned out the tanks, filters, lavarocks with bleach and soaked the driftwood creation in salty water and replaced the filter media, calcuim carb.
Then treated the tanks filters, rocks ect with a hefty dose of neutraliser and numerous water rinses for a number of days.
We resetup the tanks with new filter media, new calcium carb for the cichlid tank. Have 7 crays from the river in the cray tank and they are still living after a week. the cichlid tank we put 4 goldfish in after cycling it for about 1 week (we add cycle, malawi buffer and chlorine neutraliser to the water and ph is at 8.4, temp 26 0 ammonia and nitrite at the start). After the next week one goldfish had died but 3 were still living. got our water tested and showed ammonia and nitrite were up a bit. did a 1/3 water change and added another double does of cycle (packet said to for first 2 weeks) and waited another 4 days. Tested our water and everything looked ok so we put the cichlids in and they died in 8 hours. (we put our BNs in after the water change and they are still alive put vibrate more than swim around the tank) the bns are still alive in another tank atm and seem to be looking heathier today.
we are using an aqua one at-881 internal filter with sponge, ceramic noodles, carbon and filter wool. 3 lava rocks, one anubis on driftwood calcuim carb all new expect the rocks and driftwood (brought new when started the tank weeks ago)
We fed the goldfish flakes (only enoigh to eat in a couple of min) once a day, the yellow we only fed once about 6 hours after getting them spectrum cichlid pellets (small amount)
The tankis situated near the living room, gets some direct sunlight in the afternoon for about an hour or 2.
Sorry if this is long winded guys and i hope this helps gasnitro.
hi,
have you try fish from other sources?? I meant from other place than the place you bought those from??
Leave the tank under the sun might crack it, it happened to me, so just becareful.
yes we have tried fish from different sources and had the same results.
the first fish died i think becuase of the rocks as our cray in another tank died with rocks from the same batch in it. first yellows from one place died... got more form the same place but they were looked after else where while we tried the goldfish (from different shop), one died so we claned the tank. tried the golds again one died but 3 lived so we throught the tank was ok as they lasted over a week. picked up the yellows and they died.
Has me totally puzzled so we are going to get a new 3ft tank and try that. just dont understand why it has happened
For fish to die that quickly it would have to be poisioning.
If there are no external problems, eg; fly spray.....I would say that the silicone has absorbed a poision of some type & is leaching out into the water.
Frenchy :D
Sounds like the fish were poisoned, but I would look at you water parameters a little more closely you say
"Got our water tested and showed ammonia and nitrite were up a bit."
Any ammonia or nitrite in the water is trouble. Also you cant really cycle a tank by just leaving it for 1 week. Go out and buy yourself some pure ammonia and fishless cycle the tank. At least this way you won't have any trouble straight up with "ammonia and nitrite being a bit up"
Just one other thing I noticed you said your ph was 8.4. Have you considered that the cichlids may have been kept in tap water (like most shops seem to) prior to you placing them in the tank and the ph could be vastly different and led to ph shock. Also at such a high ph any ammonia is more toxic. The balance of free ammonia (toxic) to ammonium (virtually non toxic) is affected by ph and temperature. The higher the ph and temp the more free ammonia in the water
Cheers Chris
He mentioned that he used "cycle", which is a chemical to cycle the tank...
gold fish in 8.4 i would expect them to die. then buy the sounds of it they would of been stressing then to put Africans in there as well and not many LFS have there ph up to 8.4. this is where all your problems eventuated. also how did you up the ph to 8.4
I have used "cycle" before too and found it to be of little help in cycling a tank. This is only from my personal experience, But obviously the tank hasn't cycled if the "ammonia and nitrite were a bit up". Since using fishless cycling I have never had a problems.
Cheers Chris
we use a lake malawi buffer for the ph and hardness (i think it is made by seachem though cant remember and the tank stuff is at my partners house). also with the tests being 'up a bit' they were still within safe ranges but we waited to make sure they werent on the up
the buffer can be seen here
http://fishsupplies.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=33
iv used cycle in my tank.. put fish in it right away never had any probs of fish dyein...
Thanx tash :P
Its ok to use a buffer just make sure you adjust your fish slowly from the current (who ever you bought the fish from) water parameters. There isn't really such a thing as a safe level of ammonia (especially at a ph of 8.4) or nitrite to have in a tank. Any fish will be stressed by levels over zero just some handle it better then other i.e. goldfish over cichlids.
Cheers Chris
Another thing to think about is fish from a clean cycled tank{should be} into a tank that has readible levels of ammonia....can shock enough to kill. What symptons were the fish showing before they died. Chris is right there is no such thing as a safe level of ammonia when in a tank with high ph and is also cycling.
[quote:de4a5f418b]Have 7 crays from the river in the cray tank and they are still living after a week[/quote:de4a5f418b] That is not a wise thing to do either. As is this [quote:de4a5f418b]tried the golds again one died but 3 lived so we throught the tank was ok as they lasted over a week. picked up the yellows and they died.[/quote:de4a5f418b] In both cases the crays & goldies could be carrying anything, which can be passed onto the cichlids.
Frenchy :D
the crays are in their own seperate tank. just saying that we cleaned both tanks out with bleach and the crayfish tank is fine.
the bns were in the tank for a couple of days and they stopped swimming around and started to vibrate around ( tail fin not opened and general staying still and looked like they were spasming instead of swimming) the yellows were swimming fine for the first few hours. then they started to hide (one under the driftwood), then they were just resting on the bottom of the tank. finallly one just like spasmed and died before my eyes and the other 2 died in the following minutes
I know the fish came from tanks that were at a ph of around 7.6.
So before we buy a new tank should we try cycling the tank more and drop the ph down to around 7.6-7.8 and try fish again. (what fish should we try as ppl saying goldfish are a bad idea). Or should we bite the bullet and start over with a new tank ect.
Should we rinse the tank calcuim rock filter media ect out again or use the same waterthat is in there at the moment?
If we drop the ph should we leave it at 7.6-7.8 from now on?
Does it sound like ph or ammonia shock or could it be the tank?
Thankyou for all your help...we just want to do it right..third time lucky we hope
Id try some guppies for a week or so.. should get ya tank cycled..
Tash
The problem with some cheap species of fish is that, some are known to be bad carries of diseases or are just weak anyway.
Maybe try running the tank for a few weeks with something non important just to check to see if it is the cycling of the tank problem. The fish hanging to the bottom of the tank is & dieing that way is caused by a toxin. Either Ammonia, medicines, sprays....
One final question, was the tank running when you bought it? if it was empty how long for?
Frenchy :D
No need for a new tank. go to your lfs or buy off a breeder hear on the forum and ask them what they add to their water go home set it up. try and get all water parameters the same then buy some fish but do not load it up with fish all in one go. or ask a for some help from someone on the forum. someone close to you may help even if it cost ya a carton.
Another tip too. Read a book or good web site on how to set up tanks. Always check what you are about to throw into the tanks, rocks, fish.....& never rush a set up & finally take your time when you try to write out what happened too.
I just been talking & found out there are varing factors & the story is all over the shop.
ph when tested was 7.6 from his tank. There were no readings of nitrate at all. Ammonia 0.1.
The tanks had been running for a few weeks, the fish all died when the rocks were entered into the tank. :roll:
Frenchy :D
If you don't want to experiment by killing fish I would recommend a fishless cycle. Get yourself some pure ammonia (the stuff i use is called power ammonia it is about $3 for 2l from bilo in the cleaning section make sure you dont buy cloudy ammonia as it contains detergent) add about 10 to 20 ml per 100L to your tank (with no fish in the tank) then monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels. When they are both at zero again (should be about 1 week but up to 2) do a large water change (90 to 100%) and use a good water conditioner like seachem prime. You can repeat this process again after this point to make sure the bacteria levels are right up there. Second time around it should only take 2 or 3 days to cycle all the ammonia and nitrite out, then again another large 90-100% water change. If however you only plan to stock the tank lightly once is enough. Now stock the tank, you should have no cycling problems or no need to introduce fish for cycling that can be carrying disease. I have cycled plenty of tanks both big and small this way and have fully stocked the tank after the cycle and had no issues. As gas nitro said try to match the water parameters with the fish you are buying. If you wish to raise ph do it after a week or so and only raise a max of .2 ph a day. But generally unless you want to breed fish or the fish are wild caught and have very specific water parameters they need to survive then its not worth it. 99% of fish they do pretty well in tap water and it saves stuffing around with the parameters.
Cheers Chris
p.s. I agree with what frenchy said, read read read there are plenty of good books and websites out there. 90% of problems occur because people don't pay enough attention to the basics and poorly manage the ammonia cycle.
Well I would just dump out the water get some of the gravel and water from ya other tank put that in the tank
and usesome of the filter matter from ya other tank and start it that way
all the good stuff u need should be in it just top the tank up ever few days
and give it a week and just get some feeder fish
and leave it a nother week
If they don't make it
Cut the sealer from the in side of the tank and re seal it
Try not to cut in to the sealer between the glass
Good luck
andrew
I am with frenchy on this one.
I read ealry that you got the tank for free. What was in it before, have you asked if the reason they gave it away was because everything kept dying. I think its some kind of poisin myself leaching from the silicon.
maybe see if you can get the water analyzed for free at a lab or somethin like that, maybe like at a TAFE or a university - i dunno - just a thought :? :?:
[quote:00ad7524d7="here fishie fishie"]I just been talking & found out there are varing factors & the story is all over the shop.
ph when tested was 7.6 from his tank. There were no readings of nitrate at all. Ammonia 0.1.
The tanks had been running for a few weeks, the fish all died when the rocks were entered into the tank.
[/quote:00ad7524d7]
I dont get what u mean about the story being all over the shop...
The tank has been running for nearly a month (i never stated any longer)and as i stated before we think we had a problem with rocks being added to the tank when first set up. We tossed out the rocks and cleaned out the tank and replaced the carband filter media as stated before. we did the same for our crayfish tank(also had the same rocks in it) and that doesnt seem to have a problem now.
In regards to the ph there are 2 different reading and my test kit showed it at between 8.4 and 8.6 (dont know why the differnce maybe mine is worng) and i said that ammonia was 0.1 but it was higher when tested 3-4 days before hand hense why we waited and did a water change. We have been working with an lfs as stated since starting the tank to work through the problems and havent tried to rush it, thats why we have been asking heaps of questions and have followed the instructions given to the best of our ability.
I talked to my boss tonight at work and they have had the tank dry for about 3 years and stopped using it as they moved house and the fish died before the move so they didnt bother setting it up again (they were his wifes fish and he somehow killed them why she was in hospital, she had them for over a year)
Well your opening post never mentioned it at all.
[quote:5788447c9f]We started the tank weeks ago and put some local rocks in both this tank and our crayfish tank. we cycled the tank and put the rocks in the crayfish tank the same day we put the first lot of yellows in the big tank. [/quote:5788447c9f]
To me this reads that the rocks were being used at the start, then some were moved into the crayfish tank.
With your third post, you wrote this.
[quote:5788447c9f]the first fish died i think becuase of the rocks as our cray in another tank died with rocks from the same batch in it.[/quote:5788447c9f]
Which was good & why I put up toxin/poisioning. You already had a few replies & then others were starting to give you other reasons, the reason given is usually what happens with peoples tanks. As you can see it is really hard to tell what is wrong with someones tank, fish...especially over the net. Sorry if I appeared to come across a bit blunt. :oops: I just type in short form to get answers, then move on. I would say chances are the tank wasn't cleaned out well enough, silicone is really absorbent & its hard to tell what type of poisioning may of came from the rocks too.
Frenchy :D
The fact the gold fish survived in the tank leads me to think there is no problems with the tank itself. If there was toxins leaching from it they would be dead too. Gold fish though are generally pretty hardy and it take a bit of ammonia and nitrite to kill them cichlids on the other hand are not and even trace amounts have pretty negative impacts.
Thankyou all for your valuable input.
By the sounds of it, it could be a number of things causing the deaths from toxins to ph shock.
I think we might get the new tank and set it up to a common ph lvl (will ask the lfs) and look at the problem with the old tank a bit later on.
Why is it that things for free end up costing you money lol.
P.s. To Here Fishie Fishie,
sorry if i came across a bit rough this morning, i had just gotten home from work and was tired and sore, still no reason for me to bite the way i did. thankyou for all your help it has been greatly apprieciated
Josh and Kylie
something for you to read up on
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/rock_metals.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/rift_lake_setup.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/caribsea_substrates.php
http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/rift_lake_setup.php
No worries Josh. I saw where you were coming from.
Also Chris the cause of death to the fish, crays.... are the rocks that went into the tank. I have been talking to someone who is currently helping Josh out. Once the story was talked about, it all fell into place.
Frenchy :D