Hello :D fellow cichlid collectors and breeders,why do breeders use white crane?i have heard it can sterlize your fish, change their sex ?in other words stuff up the whole fish, shorten their life spane.so what is the sense of it if it does all this.Is the aquarium industry being dishonest :twisted: and money hungry for the quick buck.if that is the answer i hope it comes back and bites them real hard.i know of two poeple who use it ,one breeder and shop owner,they have lost my money. i will probably be thrown off the site for this ,but so what. lets hear from you and what do you say about it all.
yes ive heard exactly the same thing many times and also heard the opposite I have a few strong beleifs about white crane
1. I would use it if i wanted a kick butt display tank
2. I would never use it on anything i might ever want to breed
3. I dont mind shops using it just so long as they tell me clearly
4 Anyone who has a small knowledge of fish and has heard of white crane can normally spot them
these are my thoughts but like all things fishy look learn listen and then make up your own mind peter
It is not a product that I use and will infact ever use. The shops that use it do so cause they don't sell to a lot of breeders and they only want people to buy the fish not breed them. Personally nothing beats good naturally produced foods and natural foods in general.
i doubt many breeders would use it..
when i first got into cichlids i got sucked into taking home a trial of white crane food from a shop. the guy in the shop told me that its fine to feed to my fish even tho i told him that i was trying to get them to breed more... that was the last time i ever went to that shop. it took about 4 days of feeding them white crane and the 2 girls went as blue as the male. i stopped feeding them that after about a week and went back to cichlid flakes.one of the girls got real skinny and refused to eat anything and died. the other one was the bigger one that i had got fry from a few times and it took about 6 months before she spawned again but the eggs were all white and no good.. dont know if it was the male or female or both..
it doesnt change the sex of the fish but it colours the females up so they are the same colour as the males. when you see peacocks and electric blues showing full colour at 2-3cm you know somethings suss.
I had a 2ft with a few of the cichlid babys that I bred and fed them white crane for over 6 months and they had excellent colour and then I got sick of the tank and wanted a change so I put the fish into breed there was a male and a female lombardoi and they breed the best I have ever had. got heaps of mouthfuls out of them and about 40 at a time, so I believe that there is nothing wrong with feeding white crane to the fish.
But each person to their own opion.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers
Karen
Should not brand all breeders using white crane. you may know two people but this is not the majority of us. and yes if you feed fish every day with white crane expect them to die.
Astaxanthin or commonly called nutra rose is what is added in the foods i use.
Hi Gasnitro,
Which brand of food do you use that has NatuRose in it?
MAC
Mac it is a food that I buy bulk not available to the aquarium industry until now. Astaxanthin is used in many things. This food that I have available has 75ppm of Astaxanthin. NatuRose recommends 20-100 for ornamental fish. I also can get this food with 150ppm.
And Barry my comment was a general one to your post so please don't take it personal. i was just voicing my opinion as a breeder
hope the doctors treat you nice
the long and the short of it is, that i dont think anyone knows for sure how it really effects the fish, yes it does colour up the fish to the point you cant tell the diff between males and fems, maybe only on the species that have egg spots but which fish it effects, m or f, and how it effects them is just ppl different experiences....the only way you will know for is to try it your self under the best controlled conditions that you can muster and then you too will have your own opinion of black duck.
cheers
QuoteAstaxanthin or commonly called nutra rose is what is added in the foods i use.
Which is the same thing as white crane, geez cast and ast....
Spirulina and shrimp shells contain all the pigments you need for africans.
But to colour up juves (and females) any astax remedy does the trick
salmon aquaculture food, discus magic, natrarose, white crane, tetra bits, aqua one colour enhancer pellets or human tanning pills......
It the same end product pigment.
Yep it slows down african females.... sometimes for months and months.
but thats not the case for all types of fish
Discus breeders tout it as the philosophers stone,
And it has given many a lfs the 'edge'
As a side note many imported fish come in 'bombed' to the eyeballs.
It wears off in quarantine and dealer tanks
and you will never know it was nuked.
We are not talking about a magical chemical,
rather a very common anti-oxidant pigment.
Ya know how crabs and stuff go pink/red when you cook them?
Ya know how most colour food is pink/red.
Or how flamingo's go pink from eating bacteria/algae/shrimp?
White crane is just a quicker way to achieve.
People serious about breeding cichlids would do well to make their own gel foods
or buy something like sera that is geared towards african breeders
even cheap aquaculture protien pellets work well enough.
Leave the pretty 'super colour foods' for those people
too lazy to wait for fish to colour up
and too poor to just get over it and go marine.
Or shops that need to clear some stock....
Oh yea and try to never feed electric yellows the stuff.
Because they are a 'melanistic' fish
and white crane is basically artifical tan
It will give them brown/black smudges
And every man and his dog will come rag on them.
Thats my 2 cents anyway
arrived late and had to dig it up.
White crane posts would have to be my favourite types of post....
aside from hybrids and freak outs over snails/algae or apista
emotional heh
Hey Dead Fish Floating... Can Astax do this?
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m306/herbivores/flamet19.jpg)
:o :o :o
I'm not saying that these fish have been fed white crane, but, people report this unnatural phenomena.
Gavin
lazy i think not ::) and for foods my fish get a large variety including sera so you are not the first. would be good to see the break down of white crane though.
oh and feed Astaxanthin to your yellows and the stay yellow
i feed my tangs and malawi's with a result that i m happy with. as i breed well over 1000 fry a month with good results
now how is it that white crane and Astaxanthin are the same again i mist that bit ;D
For Sale one 233 haines, them buggers been feeding the crabs and prawns colour food again and they gone red again when i cooked them up. :)
Yes Agriculture farmers use it to enhance the end result. ;)
Sorry for stealing ya post Barry ;D
i thought i'd would share part of an email sent to me from NatruRose [Valerie Harmon]
NatuRoseÔ Natural Astaxanthin as a Carotenoid and Vitamin
Source for Ornamental Fish and Animals
Introduction
NatuRose algae meal is safe natural source of astaxanthin derived from a unique strain of
the microalgae, Haematococcus pluvialis. The majority of the NatuRose carotenoid fraction is
astaxanthin, with about 15% of the remaining fraction consisting of canthaxanthin, lutein and
beta-carotene. NatuRose is spray dried and formulated into a fine dark red powder and is
currently used worldwide as a coloration and nutrition source for numerous species of animals.
It has been successfully used for pigmenting shrimp (P. monodon, P japonicus), rainbow trout,
coho, Atlantic salmon, poultry eggs, and sea bream. NatuRose natural astaxanthin has also been
extensively tested and has demonstrated exceptional pigmentation of koi and tropicals (marine and
fresh water).
Carotenoids
Carotenoids are a group of over 600 natural lipid-soluble pigments that are primarily
produced within phytoplankton, algae, and plants. These pigments are responsible for the broad
variety of colors in nature, most notable are the brilliant yellow, orange and red colors of fruits,
leaves, and aquatic animals. Among all of the numerous classes of natural colors, the
carotenoids are the most widespread and structurally diverse pigmenting agents. Although
plants, algae, and some fungal and bacterial species synthesize carotenoids, animals cannot
produce them de novo. Carotenoids are absorbed in animal diets, sometimes transformed into
other carotenoids, and incorporated into various tissues. For example, flamingos ingest algae
containing high levels of beta-carotene and convert this yellow carotenoid into canthaxanthin
and astaxanthin before depositing it into the feathers and tissues as red plumage. Some fish
species such as koi and various crustaceans (P. japonicus and P. monodon) have the enzymatic
mechanisms to convert carotenoids into other forms such as astaxanthin. The crustacean
Taliepus subsists on seaweeds and kelp and converts the beta-carotene and xanthophylls to
astaxanthin which is then deposited into the exoskeleton.
The color of various carotenoids are related to the number of alternating double-bond
pairs in the long polyene chain of the molecule, known as the chromophore (Figure 1).
Specifically, light energy is absorbed by the carotenoid polyene system between 400-700 nm, and
is converted into vibrational energy and heat, each carotenoid having a unique resonance in this
regard. The carrot root contains predominantly b-carotene, which consists of 9 double-bond
pairs within the polyene chain, and confers a yellow to orange color. The carotenoid, g-carotene,
is composed of 10 alternating double-bond pairs and confers a deeper orange color, whereas the
red color of ripe tomatoes and the flesh of watermelons is conferred by lycopene which consists of
11 alternating double-bonds in the polyene chain. Although the polyene structure of astaxanthin is
composed of 9 double-bonds similar to b-carotene, the keto and hydroxyl groups of the terminal
ring structures contribute to the perceived color through absorption resonance.
Figure 1
Carotenoproteins and Carotenolipoproteins
In combination with proteins and lipids, carotenoids also give rise to the wide range of
blue, green, purple, and brownish colors of marine life. Complexes of carotenoids and proteins,
known as carotenoproteins and carotenolipoproteins, dominate in the exoskeleton of crustaceans,
coelenterata, and many other marine species. Although astaxanthin itself appears as a red
pigment, when it is complexed with various proteins the light absorbency shifts which results in
green, yellow, blue and brown colors. This is demonstrated by the appearance of the red color
when crustaceans are cooked, which is the result of the denaturation of the proteins and release of
the astaxanthin chromophore. The American lobster, Homarus americanus, displays an
abundance of green colors but also with shades of black, red and blue which is almost entirely
astaxanthin complexed with protein and chitin. Astaxanthin at over 90% purity has been
identified from the blue goose barnacle within the inner and outer body tissues as well as the ripe
eggs. The green astaxanthin protein of lobsters, ovoverdin, persists unchanged until shortly
before the eggs hatch whereby the protein moiety is then released, liberating astaxanthin.
Ubiquity of Astaxanthin in the Marine Environment
In the marine environment phytoplankton are the primary production level of carotenoids.
The oceans phytoplankton constitute the worlds most prolific biochemical factory, estimated at
over 40 billion metric tons of matter by dry weight annually. A conservative estimate of only
0.01% of this quantity represents the carotenoid content of this biomass, which is equivalent to
several hundred millions tons of these pigments produced each year. Phytoplankton are ingested
by zooplankton or crustaceans such as krill, and in turn become prey for salmon or trout which
deposit the characteristic red carotenoid, astaxanthin, into their flesh. Ornamental fish obtain
carotenoids from feeding upon algae, coral or prey that has accumulated these pigments.
The copepod and euphausid microcrustaceans are by far the most abundant of all marine
animals and act as the primary food for a wide variety of larger animals. Astaxanthin and
tunaxanthin, either as a complexed or non-complexed form, appear to be the most abundant
carotenoids found in all marine animals. The sponge Axinella crista-galla contains predominately
astaxanthin as a non-complexed form and displays a radiant red color. Interestingly, the blue
colors of Velella and Porpita jellyfish are due to astaxanthin carotenoprotein complexes which
shifts the absorbed light pattern to appear bluish. When this blue protein material is denatured by
heating or treatment with alcohol, the blue color disappears and the red astaxanthin fraction is
liberated. Evidence now indicates that either free or conjugated carotenoids are associated with
every branch of the coelenterate phylum, though sometimes is not apparent in white species until
red eggs are produced. Carotenoids are not confined to the soft tissue parts, as astaxanthin is
found firmly bonded to the calcareous skeleton in hydrocoral species, gorgonians and horny corals
such as the sea fan. The purple hydrocoral of Southern California, Allopora californica, owes its
prevailing blue color to a complex of astaxanthin, protein and calcium (Ronneberg et al., 1978).
The crimson-colored skeleton of Distichopora violacea, the pinkish-red skeleton of D. coccinea
and the orange skeleton of D. nitida all contain various complexes of pure astaxanthin. The
major species of Stylaster coral, including S. rosea, the pinkish-orange S. elegans and S.
sanguineus contain nearly pure astaxanthin bonded in the skeleton. The bright red integument as
well as the pyloric caeca digestive apparatus of many asteroids is primarily astaxanthin. These
include the sand star, Astropecten californicus, the webbed star Patiria miniata, the red-tipped
spines of Astrometis sertulifera, and the large colorful predators Pisaster ochraceus and P.
giganteus. The purple pigmented slug, Flabellinopsis, contains astaxanthin exclusively, which is
traceable to its principle prey, the hydroid Eudendrium ramosum. Similar examples are found in
numerous species of serpent stars, sea urchins, sea cucumbers, and molluscs.
Role of Carotenoids in Marine Animals
The luminous carotenoid colors of tropical fish are not only keys for species
identification and mating signals, they have significant physiological roles as well. The use of
carotenoids as pigments in aquaculture is well documented, and it appears their broader
functions include a role as an antioxidant, provitamin A activity, immune enhancement,
hormone, reproduction, growth, maturation, and photoprotection. The sand-burrowing shrimp,
Emerita analoga, feeds upon algae and detritus within the sand layers. It has been found that
the seasonal astaxanthin levels in the carapace and eggs parallels the exposure to sunlight,
indicating that the carotenoids serve to protect external proteins and eggs from ultraviolet
exposure. An extensive body of data stresses the vital role of carotenoids in the physiology and
overall health and concludes that carotenoids are essential nutrients that are required in all
aquatic diets. Beta-carotene is converted to vitamin A, which is required for the biochemical
processes involved in vision. Furthermore, vitamin A plays an important role in the growth,
development, and integrity of mucous surfaces. However, the majority of research concerning
astaxanthin and other carotenoids has been aimed at its role in photoprotection and as an
antioxidant in quenching of oxygen radicals.
Some species only asimilate astaxanthin and not other carotenoids. The brightly colored
anemone, Metridium, with its plumed tentacles and extensible column is one of the more
spectacular forms of this organism. It too, varies in shades of brown, yellow, orange and red
but contains predominately astaxanthin esters in the somatic and ovarian tissues. Large adult
females are raised in segregated aquariums simulating natural conditions and fed chowdered
white fish muscle supplemented with various carotenoids. Ova samples were taken by syringe
through a hollow needle from the animal's enteron and analyzed at various times. When these
animals were fed a supplement of beta-carotene or zeaxanthin as the sole carotenoid, they
absorbed the pigment through their digestive tubules but failed to assimilate it into developing
ova or tissue, which resulted in colorless ova. However, when astaxanthin was administered
into the diets the carotenoid was esterified and transported to the ripening ova which then
pigmented red. The astaxanthin then acts as a antioxidant and photoprotectant for the
developing eggs.
Astaxanthin also comprises the bulk of the carotenoids in salmonids (salmon and trout),
crustaceans (shrimp, krill, crawfish), and many coelenterates, echinodermata, and tropical fish.
The abundant deposits of astaxanthin the liver of the ribbon-like oarfish Regalicus glesne,
lumpsucker Cyclopterus lumpus and in the skin, flesh and eggs of Salmo and Oncorhyncus are all
result from their diet of various small crustaceans. The marine dorado Beryx decadactylus stores
astaxanthin in the skin, mouth, gills, and iris of the eyes. The red varieties of the goldfish,
Carassius auratus, also stores significant quantities of astaxanthin in the skin, which can be
increased by inclusion of carotenoid in an artificial diet. This species oxidizes lutein, zeaxanthin
and beta-carotene to astaxanthin esters and deposits in the skin at a level of about 45% of the
total carotenoids, whereas esterified 4-ketolutein comprises about 41%. The California sheephead
Pimelometopan pulchrum is an unusual sequential hermaphrodite, and also has the ability to
biochemically convert tunaxanthin and zeaxanthin into esterified astaxanthin before deposition
into its deep red skin.
Use of NatuRose in Artificial Diets
Marine animals have a constant source of carotenoids from their diet to maintain their
pigmentation. However, captive animals are typically fed artificial diets that are poor or
completely lacking in these critical carotenoids. The anemone Actinia equina exists in red,
brown and green varieties. Specimens that are denied food or raised from the egg stage with a
carotenoid-free diet lack pigmentation. However, when carotenoids are fed back to these
depleted animals they regain their natural characteristic colors. The initially red animals recovered
their red color and the green and brown forms resumed storage of their respective pigments.
These experiments demonstrate not only that pigmentation involves genetic factors, but also that
carotenoids have metabolic turnover and must be supplied in the diet to be maintained in the
animals.
One of the greatest challenges in the tropical marine ornamental industry is to accurately
replicate the natural color of fish that are maintained in the captive environment. Numerous
operations that have mastered the art and science of propagation have failed to successfully
market their fish due to faded colors. Various products have been introduced to alleviate this
problem, but none of these has performed as effectively and consistently as natural astaxanthin
produced from Haematococcus algae. On a commercial scale, inclusion rates of as low as 30 ppm
astaxanthin from NatuRose was used on a daily basis in over 600 aquariums of fresh and salt
water fishes as a supplement to live and flake foods. A significant improvement in color could be
seen in most species of tetras, cichlids, gouramis, goldfish, koi, danios, as well as many other
species. Stocks of over 50,000 individual fishes were as healthy and vigorous as ever, if not more
so, since the initiation of the large-scale program (Aquarium Center, Inc. of Randallstown
Maryland). NatuRose added to feeds of 40 day old Amphiprion ocellaris caused a dramatic
enhancement of color and market value after only 10 days (Reef Propagations Inc.). The largest
breeder of marine ornamentals in the world augments their own feeds with NatuRose to enhance
pigmentation and fertility.
At a fish farm in Kapa'au, Hawaii, NatuRose at 25 ppm astaxanthin was mixed into
Moore Clarke 'Nutra Starter Feed' and fed to Red Velvet Swordtails and Neon Green Swordtails.
By the fifth feeding, pigmentation is noticeably improved and by 30 days the color has achieved
market quality. Feed not supplemented with NatuRose did not meet market quality standards.
Further feeding trials in Kaunakakai, Hawaii using NatuRose mixed into Rangen Trout Swim-Up
feed, demonstrated excellent efficacy in Rosy Barbs, Cichlids, gouramis, koi, and Red Velvet
Swordtails.
In a recently published study, 100 ppm astaxanthin was incorporated into the diet of clown
anemone fish, Amphripion ocellaris and Premnas biaculeatus. Within one week the yellow and
maroon colors of the cultured clownfish intensified significantly. The black stripes of the A.
ocellaris were particularly striking which were likely due to astaxanthin carotenoproteins.
Subsequently, 1% Haematococcus algae meal was used to augment the diet of red velvet
swordtails, rainbowfish, 24K mollies, topaz cichlids, discus, rainbow sharks, pink kissing
gouramis, and rosy barbs. Within one week, each of the species had significant improvements in
pigmentation and some had better growth rates. Although a high concentration of Haematococcus
algae was used in the feed, many producers prefer an acute pigmentation treatment to prepare fish
for the market quickly. Much lower dosages can be effectively used to maintain pigmentation
(Ako, 1999).
Since NatuRose is an concentrated natural astaxanthin powder, it can be incorporated into
any type of food delivery system such as dry flake, crumble or frozen food. Thus, formulations
can be made using the preferred food and application of the grower that has already been tested
and accepted. When feeds are to be manufactured, a measured amount of NatuRose is added,
similar to using a premix. NatuRose can be added directly to a semi-moist granulated food with
good adherence and very little wash-off upon feeding. Aquarium Center Inc. mixes 1 part of
NatuRose to 500 parts of a cooked food preparation (30 ppm astaxanthin) which is a mixture of
fresh ingredients including beef liver, whole eggs, wheat germ and Spirulina powder. Good
distribution within the mixture will ensure consistency within the final feed. Depending on the
application, NatuRose containing 1.5% astaxanthin (15,000 ppm) is generally incorporated into
feeds at a final concentration of 45-90 ppm (3-6 grams/kg of feed).
As all carotenoids, astaxanthin is sensitive to light, heat, and oxygen so precautions should
be taken to protect this carotenoid from oxidation. NatuRose is manufactured with antioxidants
to enhance the stability of the carotenoids, and is shipped in sealed foil laminate bags or bottles
which contain a packet of the oxygen absorber, Ageless. Foil bags or bottles should be kept at
room temperature (72F/22C) or cooler to allow maximum stability during storage. The unused
portion of the foil bag should be sealed and stored under the proper conditions to protect against
light, heat and oxygen. Packets of Ageless can be removed and disposed after opening foil bags.
Pelleting of feeds offers the optimal conditions of low heat and oxygen exposure and losses of
astaxanthin are as low as 1-4%. The extrusion process popular with many feed manufacturers is
also compatible with NatuRose and losses generally range from 4-12%. NatuRose is very stable
in oils, top-coating (top-dressing) of pellets with a NatuRose/oil mixture has also proven
successful.
(German Peacocks before and after NatuRose supplementation in their diet. Photo courtesy of
David Ivancic)
Fresh feeds are often made by aquaculturists raising tropical fish or crustacean broodstock
in a batch fashion and the unused portion is frozen. NatuRose can be blended directly into these
feeds and will offer excellent stability while stored as refrigerated or frozen. Used with the proper
storage and handling conditions, NatuRose will yield excellent stability and provide a superior
source of natural astaxanthin for koi, fresh water and marine ornamentals.
Ako H., and Tamaru C.S. (1999) Are Feeds for food Fish Practical for Aquarium fish? Intl. Aqua
Feeds 2, 30-36.
D'Abramo Louis R. 1997. Crustacean Nutrition. Advances in World Aquaculture, Volume 6.
World Aquaculture Society. Louisiana State University. Baton Rouge, LA.
Fox, D. Biochromy. Natural Coloration of Living things. 1979. University of California Press,
Ltd. London, England.
Ronneberg, H. G. Borch, D. Fox, and S. Liaaen Jensen. 1979. Animal carotenoids 19. Alloporin,
a new carotenoprotein. Comp. Biochem. Physiol.
NatuRoseä Technical Bulletin #054 Revision Date: October 2, 2000
Contact: Dr. R. Todd Lorenz
Cyanotech Corporation
Phone: ########
FAX: #########
Email: #########
www.cyanotech.com
ã R. Todd Lorenz 2000
yep nice cut and paste,
QuoteAstaxanthin, a member of the carotenoid family, is part of a nutritious diet—for lobsters and shrimp. These crustaceans bind astaxanthin to the protein β-crustacyanin, which changes the shape of the astaxanthin molecules, turning them a gray-blue color. Cooking releases the molecules, returning them to their original bright red color.
http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html?DOC=HomeMolecule%5Carchive%5Cmotw_astaxanthin_arch.html (http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html?DOC=HomeMolecule%5Carchive%5Cmotw_astaxanthin_arch.html)
QuoteAll non-organic chicken feed contains yellow colouring, either astaxanthin or castaxanthin to enrich the colour of the yolk.
http://www.sustainability.com/publications/other/new-foods-guide-more2.asp (http://www.sustainability.com/publications/other/new-foods-guide-more2.asp)
Perhaps the white crane is a blend stronger in castaxanthin? either way both astax and castax are probably ingredients.
Not as if it's the only blend to contain them either ;)
QuoteWe have been working for several years on the alga Haematococcus which is a
good source of astaxanthin and have taken the process to pilot scale. Is
there any interested in a 'natural' source of astaxanthin?
We also have an alga which contains a mixture of astaxanthin and
canthaxanthin in quite high concentration. This alga may be cheaper to
produce than Haematococcus however I am not sure how desirable and.or
acceptable canthaxanthin is as a salmon pigmeter.
http://killick.mi.mun.ca/aqua-l.archive/aqua-l.9509 (http://killick.mi.mun.ca/aqua-l.archive/aqua-l.9509)
With yellows it's when they come off the colour food that problems usually start.
Really close to melanophore migration in fish wounds healing. The pigment choke points and leaves a darker mark.
Hey thats just my experience with the stuff. Have nuked fish with different combos many times.
And seen many a strange colour stain linger for a little while.
Yellows seem to suffer more (and more obviously) from this than any other fish.
Thats my experience yours sounds much nicer.
Personally I think spirulina and a gel food of blended crusty shells works best for Africans,
to get colour happening along normal routes.
Feeding end pigments is lazy, but it produces excellent results.
Your fish can make these substances if given the raw materials.
Or you can just load them up with it.
I never want to mention names because of the stigma placed on white crane.
But its not just the n00bs that use it.
Don't overdo it and you can still breed well.
Go neon with colour food loading and you get less breeding.
Gavin not sure what you mean about the picture.
Yes feeding astax or castax can cause whole tanks of africans to display dominant colours at once.
Thats why it is so popular with people who want a pretty display.
Even female peacocks look spectacular after a couple of weeks.
Let alone a prize hybrid rubin red male.
One more thing......
Has anyone managed to pinpoint exactly what PSB stands for in the ingredients?
Is it ' phosphate solubilizing bacteria ' or 'photosynthetic bacteria' or a 'bacterial disinfectant'?
All seems a little too simple.....
Quote from: jeffcIt appears to be Photosynthetic Bacteria. This is from an ingredient description of a food brand Azoo:
*PSB: Highly nutritious Photosynthetic Bacteria is added to brighten up the body color.
*Vibrant Colors: Krill, Spirulina, PSB that contain red pigment of shrimp, carotenoids and all-natural pigments are added. It makes the body color of fish brighter and naturally vibrant.
Here is a very detailed discussion on this subject with plenty of links:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=95302&highlight=
DFF... can you share some more of your experiences with nuking fish? I've been seaching the web for astax making females look like males in dimorphic cichlids, and have not found a thing.
white crane may have the same ingredients as the others but it also has hormones, the other's don't.
kinda like steroids, eg. a woman can eat the same protein rich foods as a man and pump just as much iron but will never get muscles bigger than a man without steroids.
Well said Benji.
after digesting all this info, one question......
will feeding my fish food with astaxanthin make my fish infertile or have
any other bad side effects???
cheers
christo
Like anything if it used in correct dosages all ok. { 20-100ppm} I find for fry it is helping growth rate. I also feed my fish other foods as well.
And my final thought on this if the fish are so bad and you have to Nuke them then I would suggest go and buy some quality fish that don't require to be Nuked.
i wasnt buying the food cause it had colouring agent, i was buying it cause it was cheap and i was broke :D
OK white crane doesn't have hormones in it.
I don't have concrete evidence for that,
it's more an educated musing.
Why would they add testosterone?
Just sounds silly to me.
Show me the link hey, otherwise I think it would be a bit more expensive.
Astax (or castax) IS the magical ingredient in white crane,
just as it's the magic ingredient in naturose
or discus magic
or tetra bits
or any of a hundred other foods.
As to nuking a female cichlid.
Thats easy mate, just feed them food with a
nice high level of astax or castax for a month or 2
and BOOM (headshot ;) ya got a coloured chicky.
As to it making them infertile.
I'm not sold on it.
Certainly slows down breeding
and confuses the hell outta male fish when their chicks
look like them.
But it depends on the fish.
I have heards discus breeders say they noticed no drop off in breeding.
and they were feeding heavy.
In one tank of mbuna I astax bombed
the fulleborne chicks never bred again
and they never missed a mouthful a mouth before that.
but the dam auratus bred like flies
despite the dirty blrowny/black females.
PSB seems to also work as a blanket term
for 'blue green' algae that isn't spirulina.
So I imagine it would contain lots of pigments.
Algae and bacteria are where these magical colours come from after all.
Spirulina itself can be used to colour females,
well something I have noticed anyway
female flameback (nyerie) fed on just spirulina flake
tend to develope golder bellys in my tanks.
Only a subtle change but once pointed out easy to see.
I am surprised you have found no evidence of astax colouring up female dimorphic cichlids.
Will have a quick look and get back to ya.
I suspect the problem lies with people knowing what is making their fish brighter
plenty of hits for brand names, and a lot less for ingriedients.
;D
so what is the "food of foods" to feed fish you want to breed???
cheers
christo
ive heard crane does have hormones in it
unlike astax that takes a few weeks to work
crane seems to work in about a week even with
young fish only 6 to 8 cm
and white crane gives the females nice long pointy fins like males as well, take them off it, the colour fades and fins go back to normal. do the others do that?
so why is it white crane works so well? when you want to colour your fish and don't care about breeding, everyone says "white crane" why aren't the other brands mentioned as often?
roids are used on tilapia, thats pretty much the only fish I can think of that are given testost anyway. Idea is to stop the breeding.
I know theres regulations about steroid food.
However I have always been able to colour up fry with astax or artificial versions of it.
Just load the food up enough.
Unless somehow my bulk astax was contaminated with whatever hormone is alleged to be in the whitecrane..... no I didn't have naturose, and yea the fins growing longer is a worry.
tricky to find something conclusive written in stone......
Can't I just feed yams as well to get the estrogen flowing in da water?
heh
yeh i know :-X :D
I just received a reply from white crane Aqua-Tech in Thailand and this is the reply
Quote
PSB comes from Photo Synthetic Bacteria. The dry powder from this bacteria contains high amount of amino acid and is used as food to keep fish in healthy condition.
do a search on Ennzymes,Lactic Bacteria, these are some other ingredients of white crane
What's the arti Astax called and how did you make it?
And for Astax to be contaminated with a hormone would be very unlikely - impossible if you brought it direct from the manufacture .
why would you not follow the recomendation on the products that you use. you like telling people that you would do anything to your fish :o
ha - aint this topic gonna run for years-
i think as i have been reading this that everyone has different point of views and that it will never be finalised-
maybe it is better to stay clear of white crane and i know myself that using the sera brand of products that my fish are healthy
as for white crane the advantages dont stack up to the disadvantages,
i have never used white crane- though i have heard of it,
and i think that with the variety of foods available that why would any breeder bother with white crane
as gas nitro states theres plenty other products around and that are a lot safer
though i still dont think that white crane has hormones added as this would be against australia quarintine laws import laws, i know that years ago it may have but at present i dont think it would- but thats just a guess
white crane is a topic that will never be finished as its contraversal and its like talking politics- bad news to discuss anytime as everyone has different point of views
anyway it makes good reading and wouldnt it be great to sit around a campfire with a bottle of bundy and discuss this with a heap of breeders and reps- ha wouldnt that be a site to see!!!
we shouldnt be pointing fingers or discussing whos using white crane- nor should we be judgemental
everyone does something that another breeder dosnt agree with -what works for you is your choice
white crane -friend or foe!!
well everyone to there own but used in moderation like once a fortnight i cant see the harm- yet i am not about to try
what i cant understand is there is so many white crane varieties
growth pellets
gold color
red color
multi color
blue color
and even one to enhance spawning!!!
most are aimed at the discus market
wouldnt it be nice to see what is actually the difference in each one of the varieties they make and the ingredients
maybe the best idea is to start a topic which gives the ingredients and percentages of different foods that are on the market and this way we can all contribute and we can all look and see the the variety and contents of all the foods around
this way all who visit the forum can look and decide what food best suits them
just a thought -as the varities are many-sera -wardley , etc etc
this would make some quality reading that we can all particapate and gain knowlegde from at the same time
what u all reckon!!!!!!
It is known that a lot of fish coming from asia have been spiked with male hormones to control breeding in other countries. White crane is a food made in asia that was supposed to be for this purpose (like I said supposed to be or another words rumored to be) although unable to be proven. Personally in my opinion I would rather stay away from it to be safe rather than sorry.
So will you stay away from all foods containing astax?
No matter the version astax is da magical ingredient and if it's on the ingredients it's a 'colour' food.
As to not following directions.....
Thats not really what nuking or juicing is about.
It's more about loading female/juvies cichlids with more astax than they can leach out.
Hormones are handy for breeding things and astax is good at giving it colour.
Take humans for example, feed them astax and they go tanned.
But thats just lazy, go to the beach and earn it ya bum!
For my fish..... brineshrimp cubes and spirulina flakes for treats, and a blended fish(bones and all) and vege gelatin food staple works well..... altho to just maintain life and breed protien pellets seem to hold up.
If I need magical colour in 3cm african fry..... time to mix a bit of astax into the food.
the long fins is a weird one hey
strange.....
see if it makes it's first year mic, while to go yet.
;)
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Homrich_Color_Enhancing_Foods.html (http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Homrich_Color_Enhancing_Foods.html)
A food test link, no white crane but it is on Africans, and theres a bit of colour change in females. No ingredients list but would have to be a similar one.
http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/Ingredient_glossary.htm (http://www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/Ingredient_glossary.htm)
The next link gives a nice list of ingriedients used in fish food. Worth a read but I'll just quote the astax bit
QuoteMainly extracted from red algae but can be made artificially. Gives good colour to fish. A carotenoid found commonly in nature but particularly in marine environments. First discovered in 1938 in the Lobster sp. Homarus astacus. Fish cannot synthesize Astaxanthin they have to find it in food. Our Astax crumb feed is rich in this item.
Astaxanthin is very strong - 10 times stronger than Beta Carotene & 100 times stronger than Vitamin E (alpha tocopherol). The anti-oxidant properties exceed also zeaxanthin, canthaxanthin & vitamin C.
Some authors have proposed this as a 'Super vitamin E'.
http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/blfishfood.htm (http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/blfishfood.htm)
a comparison of which foods contain colour enhancers
http://www.flowerhornusa.com/index.php?showtopic=1705 (http://www.flowerhornusa.com/index.php?showtopic=1705)
offered these pearls of wisdom
QuoteI have a product called nuta Rose. Its a powder that is blood red. It colors fish up very nicely. I wander if it is actually astaxanthin? I hardly ever use it. It seems to stay in the fish's system about a couple of weeksafter i stop feeding it to them.
QuoteArtificial color enhancer ussually is call EEC....and I dont use this material.
http://www.twst.com/pdf/ZAP606.pdf (http://www.twst.com/pdf/ZAP606.pdf)
A little link on the naturose astax.
:-\
theres just not much out there on fins getting longer....
more likely it's just hiding really well.
Admin: Please move this post to where it's supposed to go, as I said to Dean when old age sets in we get a bit confused lmao.
Hi Gasnitro,
I'm a bit behind the times with this post as I don't get here often but just to set the record straight. There are many forms of Astaxanthin in commercial fish foods but the vast majority of them are synthetic forms that are used as opposed to natural ones such as NatuRose. NatuRose is a brand name owned by Cyanotech in Hawaii, which I'm sure you are aware as you have posted information from their web site, but NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish. The research coming out of the states regarding this product continues to confirm Cyanotechs comments that it is a wonderful addition to any fish diet.
I have no doubt that you can buy food products containing Astaxanthin but I seriously doubt they are NatuRose, I may be wrong.
I was interested because our company owns the Australian and New Zealand rights to NatuRose and it is one of the main points of difference to our flake and pellet food, Breeders Blend. I do know it is available from resellers in the states but please be aware that NatuRose is a product that requires an import permit.
As I am not a sponsor here I may get my wrist slapped for this but anyone that wants to try NatuRose Ben at AOA stocks our full range of products, you won't be disappointed.
Cheers
MAC
Personally I think there is a bit more than just astax in WC hence the reason I won't use it. Just a quick did you know that the photosynthetic bacteria is actually the blue green algae and this if eaten by fish is toxic hence the reason why when you get an outbreak of it in your tank algae eaters no matter what type will not eat it.
Thats just silly mate!!
Blue green algaes are a HUGE group of diverse... um things.
Think of them like mushrooms
some are toxic and others a edible.
Spirulina for example is a blue green algae or photosynthetic bacteria or whatever ya want to call it,
and it's the mother of all foods.
Our immortal ancestor, THE ORIGINAL FOOD
the thing that made our air breathable
and pretty much created food chains!!!
THE BEST FOOD ON THE PLANET
hey just ask NASA!
So ya.... lotta algaes mate
and really very very few are dangerous to humans....
Altho the red tide is a warranted scary one.
God help us if that thing ever raids our bays.
I am quite sure that if ya grabbed a cheap protien pellet
and coated it with a bit of astax (or synthetic form of)
you would have a whitecrane pellet.
So you people are seriously trying to tell me that
your naturose astax isn't colouring female african cichlids?
Just seems strange is all
???
Quotevast majority of them are synthetic forms that are used as opposed to natural ones such as NatuRose
Can you just explain what natural is here?
It's a vat of bacteria/algae yea?
Quotebut NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish.
standard astax yea
QuoteI do know it is available from resellers in the states but please be aware that NatuRose is a product that requires an import permit.
It's a strange one, but ya if you can get in (then sell quickly) enuf to make it worth a permit, then it's worth it. Laws are different regarding for human and animal use too. Easier to buy a few sacks of ridley salmon pellets than a bottle of tanning pills over here.
Any chance ya can get us some info on whats going on with elongated anal fins in female dimorphic african cichlids when fed a diet high in astax MAC? Maybe pass it up the chain and see what comes back. :)
QuoteCan you just explain what natural is here?
It's a vat of bacteria/algae yea?
Natural as in grown as opposed to coming out of a science lab. Cyanotech grow Haematococcus Pluvialis in very large outdoor lakes. Quote from their web site "NatuRose Natural Astaxanthin has been carefully formulated into a fine, free flowing dark red powder and is used as a pigment, nutrition source and to improve the health of aquatic animals, birds, horses, pigs and companion animals."
Quotebut NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish.
standard astax yea
Tell me, what's your idea of standard Astaxanthin? To answer you, no it's not, it's much more than a colour enhancer.
QuoteIt's a strange one, but ya if you can get in (then sell quickly) enuf to make it worth a permit, then it's worth it. Laws are different regarding for human and animal use too. Easier to buy a few sacks of ridley salmon pellets than a bottle of tanning pills over here.
Yes, the laws are different. Ridley's Salmon pellets are fine I suppose depending on how well you want to feed your fish. Not my idea idea of a well balanced diet but that's just my personal opinion.
QuoteAny chance ya can get us some info on whats going on with elongated anal fins in female dimorphic african cichlids when fed a diet high in astax MAC? Maybe pass it up the chain and see what comes back. :)
I know absolutely nothing about Africans mate, Discus are my bag but the first question I'd be asking is what form of Astaxanthin is being fed to them? What amount of Astaxanthin in a diet do you consider high and how much astaxanthin was fed to the fish that ended up with elongated fins? Our food contains 3gms of NatuRose per kilo of food which is considered the amount to use if you're feeding the food as part of a daily rotational feeding program. Personally, I can't see Astaxanthin (natural not synthetic) on its own creating abnormalities/deformaties in fish. I've fed Discus culls 20 times the recommended amount of NatuRose and it didn't produce abnormalities although you did need sunglasses on to look at 'em, very brightly coloured.
MAC
ACtually mate you better do a bit more research the spirulina your talking about is a phytoplankton which is made up of plant based substances. And is high in proteins and other esssential compounds. This is a form cyanobacterium which works in a similar way to photosynthetic bacteria but needs both oxygen and light to flourish. The blue green algae that is toxic does not need oxygen and is found in anaerobic conditions which generally have pollutants. Eg sections of large fish tanks without adequate filtration or water movement, lakes and human water supplies. It also forms a blanket over all surfaces of the tank. Also Spirulina is one of the only forms of these cyanobacteria that is safe for animal consumption and is no longer known as a blue green algae for this reason. The blue green algaes are the toxic ones. These have been linked to human and animal deaths and have been known to wipe out lakes of fish. So as you can know see my statement was not as silly as you thought.
By the way Spirulina contains chloryphyl were the toxic blue green algaes do not. Also I do not believe in these being the first things that made our air breathable for that to be true they would have to have been the only life on earth and there fore you would have to believe in evolution sorry I am a big believer in creation so you can say I am a christian but that is another debate.
Wow ;D , this is a great forum topic to start a debate. This is what forums are for, so people can express their opinions and hopefully give some good knowledge on the subject.i have read all of the replies on this subject,and have made my mind up.No white crane FOR MY FISH. cheers from fishless.
Braddo mate,
Look when oxygen producing life ( Fossil traces of this cyanobacteria from around 3.8 billion years ago in WA called Stromatolite back this up) first came around and started creating oxygen..... it wiped out 99.99% of all life on the planet. This new oxygen stuff BURNED the life that had evolved at that point to bits.
Those that survived the oxygen spike went on to evolve others. Spirulina like organisms was one of the very few species to survive this and as such pretty much were the base for the foodchains we have now.
spiru is a bloody primitive species, and eaten by both modern plants and animals.
It is very simple. But when it first bloomed, it did so on a scale that changed the very atmosphere gas make up.
Creationists are savages in this day, sorry. If ya want to get really fussy I'd say some sort of panspermia event is the trigger behind it all, but as O2 breathers spirulina is as good an acestor as any to pick.
As to actually properly classifieing one of the most obscure and confusing groups of life on the planet...... you would be surprised how little it matters to me. Only going to all change again as we learn more. I'll cram before the next exam and get them right. But there are many many blue green algaes that cause no harm. I drink them all the time. Or just take pics of them thru da scope if I'm feeling ghandi on the day. The problem species that cause such drama are very much in the minority. But variety is the theme and different animals feed on different species. SPiru is interesting because anything can eat it.
As to the blue greens not containing chloroplasts or phyl or whatever.
Once again stop being silly! The 'green' bit of the name is a give away methinks, or cyan if ya wanna be fussy.
Either way hit hit up wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_green_algae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_green_algae) or algae base if you need to comfirm what you surely already know.
Braddo mate,
Astax has VERY different reactions on discus than it does on african cichlids. As to the salmon riddley food, it was an example. I would rather mix my own foods and decide on ratio's. And my point here is that if I get pure astax, mix up a good amount with some fish food say your 60g/kg (3ppm X 20) and feed my tank of assorted female peacocks, I recon that given 2 weeks on that diet those females are gonna be dam pretty.
QuoteQuote
but NatuRose is far more than a mere colour enhancer, it is full of anti oxidants and many other ingredients that help with fundicity and the overall health of fish.
standard astax yea
Tell me, what's your idea of standard Astaxanthin? To answer you, no it's not, it's much more than a colour enhancer.
You missread me.
I realise astax has other propertys than just increasing colour, but astax is astax. It's like saying only orange flavoured vit C tablets are good, where as lemon flavoured ones are.........
Oh wait your talking about your whole protien pellets ingredients?
Fishless, glad ya had a good read.
It's a nice topic to see.......
Astax is like fish TB to most in the industry
Public never needs to know........
;D
Ah once again make sure you are talking to the right person on the right debate it was MAC with the astax.
I respect your opinion on us creationalist but even the farther of evolution admitted he was wrong about it on his death bed. As for the earth being 3.8billion years old carbon dating has also been proven to 99% of the time being at error. Can i also say that I would rather know where I am going when I die by beleiving what I beleive than something that was a theory made up by a man that went back on this theaory when it truly mattered.
I beleive also that every is allowed to have their own beliefs and I am not trying to put mine down anyones throat. Oh and by the way I do find your avatar offense using the christian emblem of the fish with darwin in it but that is your right to have it and I can ignore it. And to finish I did use a lot of different references to come up with my information on the spirulina. The green colour to blue green algae is a product of waste produced by a reaction within its cells not chlorophyl. Because I have a different opinion and knowledge o these things don't make me silly as you put it but makes you ignorant for calling me that because I have different opinions.
Oh and the savages comment wouldn't it be more of a savage to believe that we were originally evolved from apes or even further back in your beliefs bacteria or the primedial ooze. I too was once a believer in evolution until I seen what was true.
Hi DFF,
It was MAC that made half those statements about Asta not Braddo mate. A couple of points in answer to your post. The comment Asta is Asta is incorrect. The synthectic forms of Astaxanthin that are commonly used today in commercial feeds have a different molecular structure to natural forms and the outcomes are different, the colouring is not as natural looking and this is why farmed Salmon for example have a different flesh colour to wild caught.
You've given me the impression that you think NatuRose is just another word for Astaxanthin, it is not. NatuRose is a product that contains Astaxanthin in the form of the algae, Haematococcus Pluvialis BUT it also contains many more bits and pieces so to speak, all of which are very beneficial to fish and their overall health. Incidentally, the ratio with NatuRose is 3gms per kilio not 60 mate, give 'em that much and they'll glow in the dark.
Why would it have a different reaction on Discus compared to Africans? I'm not saying it doesn't but if you know please tell me coz I don't. Are you telling me that Astaxanthin is not eaten by African Cichlids in their natural environment? Astaxanthin is the very thing that makes Flamingo's pink, it is found naturally in most plant life and crustaceans so if African Cichlids are not eating it in the wild I'd like to know what they eat. I thought they were mainly vegetarians.
Why shouldn't the public know about Astaxanthin? Again, it is something that is found in nature. It's not a hormone or a contraceptive pill, it is something that is eaten daily by fish in the wild and something they gain great benefit from. Because animals cannot synthesize carotenoids de novo, they must obtain these pigments from the plants and algae that support their food chains and unfortunately, we don't have that situation in a tank, we have to add it.
I find it a bit amusing really, so much debate (which is a good thing) on something like Astaxanthin and yet virtually every single fish food on the market has a preservative call Ethoxyquin and I've seen nothing on any fish forum I've ever visited. Now there's something that should be the topic of much debate, it's arguably the biggest killer of dogs and cats in the US right now and debate is raging over it's use. Take a look at your food labels people, it's full of the stuff. Then Google it!
MAC
Mistakes are crutial I am not having a go at you but the truth is, i too have contacted NatuRose direct and they will supply me naturose and I did not cut and paste from there site as you and DFF claim. i could post up all content including the price if you would like but some might get :-[ >:( :o and so I will leave it at that! unless you want me to back up my words of course. I was trying to educate DFF from his Nuking. ;D And there are other foods that contain Astax. I did consider to bring some Astax in and that I am getting it in foods already prep I am happy. The food I am using currently that contains Astax is not Aussie made.
Also can you tell me what brand off food you make as I would like to buy {direct} and try it on my breeders. And yes I have a registered Business.
:)
Gasnitro,
The food we have is Breeders Blend but unfortunately we don't sell it directly. There are sponsors here that sell it though. There's a flake and pellet and very shortly Spirulina products also laced with NatuRose.
MAC
Yes when I think of naturose I do think of their pure astax product.
And yes astax is astax.
Does it exist in the natural cichlid environ?
Well thats a tricky one. Male cichlids do make it from pigments inside their body. Females don't usually bother.
That said from eating algaes crustaceans bind astaxanthin to the protein β-crustacyanin, which changes the shape of the astaxanthin molecules, turning them a gray-blue color. There are MANY sythetic forms of astaxanthin, but they have other names e.g. castaxanthin. I doubt the strain of algae your growing for the naturose is found in the same water conditions as malawi, I know my spiru cultures need some seriously high pH to flourish. Astax is not very common in it's pure form, yes theres lots locked up in the foodchain but it's not available to fish the same way it is when ya mix it into their food.
So yes in my mind astax is astax.
No matter the source it gives around the same saturated colours in fish with a similar dose.
As to dose, well I merely followed your 20 times calculations for my ratio to use on female africans.
We agree it will have the end result of colouring them up, just need to agree on the dose that will do it?
heh
I ain't raggin on any products containing astax or astax itself here.
Love the stuff think it's a great tool for fish geeks.
But for all the double speak and voodoo surrounding it..... well thats kinda not cool.
Was trying to bring a bit of light onto why white crane and other foods containing astax can reduce breeding in female african cichlids.
QuoteWhy would it have a different reaction on Discus compared to Africans?
because they are dimorphic ;)
QuoteWhy shouldn't the public know about Astaxanthin?
because to the layman colour = healthy, and with a bit of astax feeding shops sell more fish, when colours fade they sell more colour food.
As to you being part of some strange blood cult, I got no problem with that.
All religeons seem a bit kiddy to me but yea each to their own.
As to life evolving outta the ooze, perhaps my panspermia quote was to obscure.
I believe life came here on chunks of rock.
Rock eating dark life.
With this method, the universe is not barren and old comets scatter cells thru the verse.
:-) We are not alone, never were and we are also prob nothing special.
A theory that in the past would have been seen as loopy...... but now, well now it's the baby of some of the greatest minds on the planet.
Year 2000, India.... look into the time it rained blood from the sky. Cells with no DNA.
Religeon died once and for all after that for me.
As to my avatar offending people,
that is.....
weak man
Mr Gasnitro ya post up the prices etc, not going to faze me.
I contacted them last year as well and got all the same data.
Anyway peace fellow humans, I chase only simple truths not a dam thread victory jeez :)
W000000000T
LMAO! Cult, me in a cult, if only you knew me lol, the only cult I follow is white wine and a good time? I've no desire to have heated debate with anyone, just debate and opinions. As I said previously, I know absolutely nothing about Africans so you're giving me an education which I am always grateful for.
MAC
yer yer
i have had all the things said to me about white crane >:( >:( >:(
but if you only knew what other food gets made in this factory ;D
i am not going to list them as i will only cop crap
all i will say is that white crane just has more color [stuff] they any other brand of food..
its just stronger..
we now use spectrum in high dose and get same result..
but we still get the crap ??? ::)
kev
Quote from: Mistakes Are Crutial on March 26, 2007, 03:39:48 PM
I've no desire to have heated debate with anyone, just debate and opinions.
And I hope thats what were all here for? Please play nice!
Please dont let your personal lives/matters get in the way of a good discussion.
We all have different views, please respect them.
The world be a very boring place if we all had the same idea's and thoughts...
Enjoy 8)
You said the green in the name is a giveaway that it has chlorophyl so in saying that you would have to presume that anything with green in its name contains chlorophyl. So green tree frogs would be in that also any animal with green colouring lizards and birds. That would then of course make them plants as plants are the only things that is supposed to have chlorophyl. Also in saying that if you were to put algacide into a pond containing spirulina it would kill off the spirulina? But if you put algacide into a pond containg the blue green algae we get in our fish tanks and water supplies it has no affect. The only way is to get rid of this blue green algae is to use eurythomiacin an anitbiotic which affects and destroys this menace. So with this being fact how can it be the same thing.
Hello :),i thought the topic was about white crane,not about religion,symbols and name calling and so on.religion , politics do not mix and now fish,what next.Let's get back on the subject and stop this name calling fellers.We all have one thing incommon we like collecting and breeding FISH. from fishless.(old username sultana)who started this topic.
Sorry fishless I did sayit was for another debate but I also do have a right to defend myself and my beliefs against some of the comments made but will refrain from doing so.
If anyone needs to defend themselves please do yourself a favour and report the offending post to myself or any other admin/mod.
This is a fins and scales site, let talk about thing with fins and scales, b nice... ;D
Any other questions please see:
http://qldcichlid.com/forum/index.php/topic,6796.0.html (http://qldcichlid.com/forum/index.php/topic,6796.0.html)
Thanks and happy debating!
Sorry Barry for not sticking to the subject as we all stole your post.
white crane it's like magic. Not only brightens fish but the natives as well. :D
Sorry DFF i was only supporting my claim and i wont post prices for public viewing. :-X
Mistake are crutial you are doing a good thing for the hobby in trying to supply a product
for our fish.
Kev i have always enjoyed visiting your shops with a good range of fish.
maybe Kev i think you could be right if the product is dosed right up with more colour stuff would be very understandable.
As DFF claims when nuking with high doses of Astax he turns the girl colourful maybe it is right in front of us all.
look mum no - nukes - [ i hope ].
First of all Jeez thank you KEV!!!
Was waiting for someone in the biz to pull me outta da fire!
WoooooooT!
Ah well, ya couldn't enjoy watching me squirm forever ;D
As ya say it's hard to mention shops or other foods without attaching stigma to that as well.
I remember trying to make a gelatine food batch with astax I'd tried to concentrate from barnacle shell inner linings.
Soon as I said 'works like white crane' it was like I just told some people I wanted to eat their firstborn.
Loaded words.
Still I recon that spectrum is a much better food, than white crane,
Only prob is getting customers to fork out and buy it for the fish once they buy it.
Iv'e also never noticed it make lecky yellows dirty.
Any idea on whats going on with the elongated fins Kev?
QuoteYou said the green in the name is a giveaway that it has chlorophyl so in saying that you would have to presume that anything with green in its name contains chlorophyl. So green tree frogs would be in that also any animal with green colouring lizards and birds. That would then of course make them plants as plants are the only things that is supposed to have chlorophyl. Also in saying that if you were to put algacide into a pond containing spirulina it would kill off the spirulina? But if you put algacide into a pond containg the blue green algae we get in our fish tanks and water supplies it has no affect. The only way is to get rid of this blue green algae is to use eurythomiacin an anitbiotic which affects and destroys this menace. So with this being fact how can it be the same thing.
Braddo dude,
Sorry if I was blunt mate.
Same thing... first we need to know what thing, next time ya get an outbreak put a sample under a microscope.
Then ya can try ID and find the silver bullet. So basically they are not the same thing, yet they are a million million varietys of the same thing. keh?
These organisms are so very very old.
they created the air we breath by photosynthesis while creating their own food.
To do this they need chlorophyl, infact they pretty much 'invented' other 'plants'
This is because inside plants today are things call chloroplasts.
Each chloroplast is stuffed to the gills with chlorophyll and is in fact.... yep you guessed it a cell of blue green algae!!!!
So to say theres no chlorophyll in the thing that makes up chlorophyll in all plants is just..... well it threw me mate.
As to frogs containing it, I think you and google need some quality time together.
But I'll save you one bit of work, spirulina requires quite good water conditions, as do many algaes.
The blue greens make up one of the most important classes of 'bacteria' even today.
They ARE the most important part of almost EVERY ecosystem on the planet.
With their countless species we could try algaecide trials on them for a thousand years with a million test chemicals and manipulate the data to prove whatever it is your trying too.
As too attacking organisms that can reproduce and evolve so quickly with heavy handed things like antibiotics I would urge restraint. This is, in aquariums after all merely an aesthetic issue easily solved with a change in maintenence regime.
The use of antibiotics, whizz bang as it seems has never been sustainable. Look at the state of neon tetra now! heh heh
Anyway you seem to have had a nasty run in with a blue green at some stage.
I reccomend you continue to learn about thy enemy, in the hope you will learn to respect these little guys.
Without them we would all be dead, or never have been.
If you would like to continue via PM or email I would be happy to.
Algae is something I have talked about a lot, worked around a lot and cleaned a lot.
We have a love-hate thing going.... 1 day the windowsill is full of greenwater cultures the next I have a 20kg bag of copper.
Gasnitro,
My main problem with importing was just the amounts they wanted to trade in.
piggybacking inna bit with a fishfarms order worked for me, w0000t
Maybe not as easy to get as viagra, but was easier than medical grade spirulina.
If you want medical grade Spirulina and from what they say, "the best Spirulina in the World" then just go to the same place you wanted to buy your NatuRose from. They've got plenty of it.
MAC
Ah I found a better source, and she's a bloody babe too!
Not my babe.... dam
But yes a babe.
Price gets a bit better when ya buy it by the kg at container prices
;D
Wish I could share but you'll have to find your own!
Woooooooooot!
LoL, don't know whether my contact is a babe or not, bit hard to see her ass when she's sat on it in Hawaii. Mine's on it's way over now mate but it's not medical grade, just the ordinary stuff.
MAC
probably coming from the same places anyway.
Doubt if fish are ever going to notice any difference
but it does come in goochy containers
and worked out well for me.
If you can find a retail place thats turning over a lot of spiru,
ya may be able to work out a way of getting their out of date stock.
still makes wicked goldy food
At 150kg at a time I'm pretty happy with the prices. Would like some feedback from you African guys and girls though. This shipment we're getting some Spirulina flake already made up, only about 20kg as a sample but it's pure Spirulina with just Lecithin added, nothing else whatsoever, no protein, nothing. Main reason for the sample only is to see whether it's palatable for the fish. Would that product be of interest to African breeders/keepers?
MAC
yes, yes it would.
For people with expensive mbuna/or tangs
who want to feed a concentrated food to reduce water changes.
while providing natural colour and growth.
Plus if it's fresh straight off the factory it's gonna be burstin with nutrients.
150kg at a time is getting there! I usually grab about 5kg a time and that lasts me a while.
Spirulina colours up native rainbows very very well too.
And is magical marine food
MAC you need a trial place I am more than happy to offer a couple of my tanks for the trial. I have nothing but africans and bn's of course and 70+ tanks on the go at the moment so I thinak I can spare a couple of tanks for testing for you. Under your instructions of course. But the offer is there if you need it. Plus I live close to you.
Hi Braddo,
Thanks for the offer and I'll most certainly take you up on it. This is unique (as far as I know) so I would like to make the offer open to any large breeders of Africans that use this forum. I will have about 10kg left after things I already have planned so anyone that can give me some decent feedback would be appreciated.
MAC
Edit: Hey Doug, wanna go again?
Need to get some to that ben blake guy
Mother of god does that guy have the ninja african touch.
Mac i also would be open to try some flake if you want.
No problem, I'll post it up here when it arrives.
DFF, who's Ben Blake and how do I get in touch with him?
I've been reading some papers on Astaxanthin and pigmentation in fish generally and it looks like the only pigment any fish can produce at cellular level are black and brown pigments which are called Melanocytes. If that's the case where does the E Yellow get the Xanthophylls from in it's diet? I doubt we'd find too many Marigolds or dried egg yolk in the African lakes. Does anyone know what the natural source of it is?
Cheers
MAC
You'd probably find crustaceans would make a bit from algae maybe?
But ya not sure where they'd be getting it.
Electric yellows are VERY confusing and seem to be an exception some days.
I still don't quite get why they are yellow instead of blue.... not completely anyway.
I wanted to experiment with sunflower petals myself as easier to grow.....
Still a nice yellow and can get a very dye like extract from them.
and me parrot loves the seeds.
As to producing the pigments, its a strange one and fish varie. For example goldfish use different base materials to build other pigments. Amazing the colour they can make just fed duckweed!! Other fish can use others.
But I digress Mr Blake is a breeder who had the shmickest africans I'd seen for ages. No contact for ya unfortunately.
But yea his fish would make good guinea pigs
heh heh