Sad, depressed and frustrated....

[Paul]

Mickvick, your summation is exactly correct, and is consistent with what I have already posted in this thread. I assume Justin is Here fishy fishy? I don't think that what he is trying to say is what you have just summated.

[here fishie fishie]

Hello Paul,

Weren't happy to learn something new, just because you never heard it before.  :lol:  Thats why half the time I use referenced statements but leave the reference out, as I like to see peoples reactions.

Mick, explanation is basically what I meant, sort off, I think.... :roll:

You see when the ph in a tank is low, usually the carbonates in the water are lower too. The Nitrifying Bacteria that break down the ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow. So the lower the ph the lower the numbers of nitrifying bacteria. So ammonium in lower ph tanks is at usually at higher levels.  A sudden rise of the ph in aquariums can be a disaster beacause of all the free ammonium, it gets converted into Ammonia. Remember that it takes time for the Nitrifying bacteria to grow.

[b:6215f4b77f]So if old mate took his water to get tested, they will say it is your fault, you have an ammonia problem see look at the result. Well truth be told, its a very good chance he didn't have an ammonia problem. They are seeing the result of the free ammoium, from a lower ph tank. [/b:6215f4b77f]
Ammonium is predominantly present in lower pH environments and doesn't carry the multitude of problems associated with the more toxic ammonia.
Is that better?

As for reference, I dont think you asked me nice enough lol. Lets say the dude shits all over us.

Mick that is why water changes were suggested & also to raise the ph       s l o w l y  :wink:  
eg; use 30grams of sodium bicarbonate per 100litres of new water.

Frenchy :D

[madbob101]

Bloody kiwis  :P

[here fishie fishie]

[quote:aa0d6a8f0f]Bloody kiwis :P [/quote:aa0d6a8f0f]

 :lol: What, I have been here longer than the turncoat playing full back for you guys on Friday night :lol:

Frenchy :D

[Paul]

Hi Frenchy,
                  I see where the confusion is now. When I am talking about ammonia, I'm talking about the general term for the NH3 molecule and also the NH4+ ion. Whereas you are called the NH4+ Ion ammonium. Each to their own.

Still, your assertion that ammonia NH3 will always be present in any aquarium is wrong. Ammonia, either as NH3 or NH4+ should never be present in measurable quantities in an established aquarium.
[quote:110feff98a]
...the lower the ph the lower the numbers of nitrifying bacteria.[/quote:110feff98a]

 A more correct statement would be to simply state that ph affects the growth rate of nitrifying bacteria. There is no linear relationship. Growth of nitrifying bacteria will also slow as the PH rises above a certain PH. Regardless this relationship does not apply here. The original poster stated that his ph was already  above 7 and below 8. http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html states that "Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5" Nitrosomonas bacteria is responsible for converting Ammonia to Nitrite.


So any ammonia (NH3 or NH4+) present in this person's aquarium would not be related to the ph and more likely related to poor aquarium practices.


While I would still advise raising the PH slowly in any aquarium, ammonia poisoning would not be one of the reasons why.

Frenchy, I frequent discussion boards for the purpose of sharing knowledge and experience only. It's always helpful to reference any of your facts to support your claims and provide a point for further reading for those that want to know more.

[here fishie fishie]

[quote:8383e52273]Still, your assertion that ammonia NH3 will always be present in any aquarium is wrong.[/quote:8383e52273]
Really :?:  Am I :?:  Oh dear :!:  :lol: I didn't say that anywhere. I am talking about NH4{Ammonium} :roll: being converted to NH3.

Ammonia & Ammonium are seperate. Most basic tests will read as the same.
As long as your fish releases waste{pee} & if you have a low ph you will always have Ammonium, if it is at readable levels or not. Cheers. Unless they are all constipated.

Ammonia & Ammonium are seperate. Most basic tests will read as the same.

As for your comment, about Sam not listening to a LFS & researching the information himself. What is the point of having a forum then :?:  :roll:

Frenchy :D

[here fishie fishie]

I hate to quote u 2 BUT

[quote:760da974ed]Growth of nitrifying bacteria will also slow as the PH rises above a certain PH. [/quote:760da974ed]
The bacteria grow better at a higher ph, it needs carbonates to grow. Carbonates are more prsent in higher ph's correct :?:  Maybe you can re read then re post thank you.
Once again I am talking about Ammonium, :roll:
Once again just for Paul, don't get to excited now, you ready Paul, are you sure now, hate for you to miss read it again....
"The bacteria that break down the Ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow."
It is a quote. I have shown people this before, it is from a book that I have in my hot little hands.

Why would I give you a reference when you come out & say
{a} I am wrong when you miss quote me &
{b} making a statement about bacteria like the one you have above.

At least mickvick went & did some research & sort of figured out my Kiwi jibberish. :P Do as you suggested to poor Sam, go research yourself. Cheers.

Frenchy :D

[Paul]

You're not making much sense at all now so I think we should leave this thread be.

I'll just address a couple of points.

[quote:259bc72248]
The bacteria grow better at a higher ph, it needs carbonates to grow. Carbonates are more prsent in higher ph's correct Question Maybe you can re read then re post thank you.[/quote:259bc72248]

That's a really simplistic way of looking at it. Infact it's plainly wrong. I have addressed this point as plainly and simply as I can. There is no linear relationship between ph and bacteria growth rate. are you trying to say that bacteria will flourish in a solution of ph 14?

[quote:259bc72248]Why would I give you a reference when you come out & say
{a} I am wrong when you miss quote me &
{b} making a statement about bacteria like the one you have above. [/quote:259bc72248]

Don't take it personally if I disagree with you on a point. The purpose of any reference is to validate your point and back up your statements with fact. Infact I don't know why I even have to say that, it's obvious.

Find me a reputable source that says raising the ph of a well maintained, healthy, established aquarium will produce toxic NH3 in measurable levels and we can continue this discussion. Until then your argument is just heresay and nasty personal attacks.

[here fishie fishie]

"The bacteria that break down the Ammonium need inorganic carbon in order to grow." Quote. Lasse Forsberg. He goes onto say a [b:4240ebed85]stable ph of 8[/b:4240ebed85] would be nice, how lovely. So must be enough carbonates there.

As for bacteria growth at a 14ph. How many cichlids will live at a ph of 14. You taking the Mickey, yet you tell me to stick to facts. Interesting.

[quote:4240ebed85]Ammonium ions are a toxic waste product of the metabolism in animals and are excreted unchanged in the urine by water animals.

the degree to which ammonia forms the ammonium ion depends on the pH of the solution.[/quote:4240ebed85]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium

ps; Quote what ever you like, about ammonia, bacteria with ammonia.

It isn't what I am talking about first up now was it, get ammonia out of your brain for a second. Read up on ammonium first. Your forst question to me was basically asking about Ammonium.
Once again cheers.

Frenchy :D

[here fishie fishie]

ps; Everything I wrote came from Texts or similar. Look up what Lasse Forsberg has done. If you can't I will let you know who he is & his achievements tomorrow. It's all in a book or 2 I have, editor is some Ad Konings fella.

You don't get what I mean with the information I have posted Paul, having a reference next to it isn't go to make the penny drop for you either. :lol:

Ammonium...... :lol:
 
Frenchy :D

[fishtraderlau]

Sam...did you ever expect this kind of response?

Wow......what do we all reckon...can we please see a measure off..come on...here and now  :wink:

Frenchy, i got the jist, something tells me you might kind of know what you are talking about, people also needed to understand a bit to read it, not saying anyone didn't- no probs, i think we are all fine now...watch those pH rises hey.

Well now...who wants to tell me about Bauxite, Alumina, and Aluminium... :)

That's enough joking around from me, I hope everyone is happy, except poor old Sam.

Mate, it is tough luck, but all i can say champ is in future, as other have suggested, just get the new fish into buckets and spend as long as you need to to bring them to the right pH. Just ask Mudskipper and Trophius about it, who had some 50 duboisi arrive in Moura one night, pH 7 in the bags....8.6 or something in the tanks, there started a very, very slow gradual change of water for the tropheus in buckets to bring them up to desired over a couple of hours, and then not a single loss. It was the other way around for you but adjusting the new fish is typically the easiest way mate, best to leave tanks as they are and if raising pH, have a sweet system (with already heaps of above water and below water filter area for bacteria)...or just take your time with the good old water changes- but only look to do that if say, changing a fish from tropical to african or something like that, otherwise just used buffers in your tank and keep the pH stable long term.

Tough way to learn mate, we've all had similar things happen to us before, just a shame on such good fish.

All the best in the future mate, don't give up on the fronnies, like a few of the guys have said, feel free to ask these sorts of Q's here first, there is plenty of people with a lot of experience out there who can help you out.

Andrew.

[Sam25]

Wow guys  :!:

I never expected a reply like this... 8O

Now i am not going to go into the Technical stuff, as i had trouble understanding most of what frenchy and paul said...lol

BUT, i dont feel as if you are right paul,
 
[quote:011c53b6d3="Paul"]If you had ammonia present in your tank then raising the PH will make that ammonia much more toxic. Ammonia present in an aquarium becomes alot more toxic as the PH rises.

Please have a look here for very detailed information on this:

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

What you have described is a fairly common incident. When you got the advise from your local fish shop, they probably assumed your ammonia was under control, as it should be in an established aquarium.

Sorry to hear about your loss, but I don't think you can legitimately feel too aggrieved in these circumstances sorry.

And whether the advise given is accurate or not is beside the point anyway. You are responsibe for what you do to your fish, and taking the advise of one person from a LFS is not really good research.  You'll always have a couple of experts at your LFS, but there are likely to be a few staff that have no idea. At my LFS there is only one guy that knows how to identify the cichlids, and when he's not working I have to identify the cichlid for them so they can charge me the right price!

Good luck with your future fish endeavours and maybe do a bit more research next time. You've learnt the hard way, but at least you've learnt.[/quote:011c53b6d3]

You could not understand the situation i was in..

Try being a faithful customer for 6yrs, purchasing 90% of your aquarium goods at the same place, Selling fry to them at bargain prices and just being good friends...

You cant possible tell me that you wouldnt trust someone who you reciece great deals off yourself, and also knowing that the person is very knowledgeable....

My point in my first post was, considering the fishshop gave me the wrong advice, i thought maybe we could struck a deal in regards to me getting some other fish at say half price...

I think that if you are not 100% sure on the advice your about to give you just shoudnt give it...

I have moved on now, and admit i made a mistake aswell, so i am not going to push for anything... :D

[quote:011c53b6d3="gasnitro"]i agree also about raising ph the ammonia can spike why would you have 7.4 for frontys in the first place :? . did you do a water change with raising  ph up. what sort of filtration do you have?
anyway sorry for your loss :([/quote:011c53b6d3]

Gasnitro, frontosas can live at any ph from 7.2 - 8.8 as long as its kept stable..

Most fronny breeders will agree with me on this...

I was running a cannister filter on the tank @ 1500L per hour...

So there was more then enough filtration on the tank....

Thank you for all the replys guys, i appreciate the people who gave there kind words..

I am now going to use the tank as a fry grow out tank/ or a tank to house a colony of hongi's if i find them... :P

Thanks again,

Sam

[here fishie fishie]

All the best Sam with the now grow out tank. Sorry if I went on a bit, ok a bit more than a bit.

My question was I wanted to know what the fish shop said to you about how to raise the ph. Most people are concerned about shock to fish, ph burns... Not many people know what really happens when you raise the ph, eg; Ammonium. Andrew knows by the looks of it. I spoke to a couple of people yesterday & today about this topic, just to check & see that what I read & also thought was correct.

The trouble is when writing from texts, they can long & drawn out & to write down word fo word....arrggghhhh. Not like I can copy & paste, like an interent source :lol:
So I just write what happens, really if people want to know why, easy information to source, just have to look up the right words or word.

Once again Sam, happy fish keeping.

Frenchy :D

[Paul]

Yeah sorry about all this. I respect your knowledge of fish keeping Frenchy.

<Offers virtual handshake to Frenchy>

[here fishie fishie]

Extends hand and accepts virtual handshake, & says sorry himself.

Not my knowledge, just have a few books handy. & a little bit of memory.

Frenchy :D