So What The Hell are they puting in the water NOW!

[here fishie fishie]

Interesting age water yet not to bother about chloramines. Why age the water at all then, chlorine which is less of a threat. eg; Malawis could handle upto roughly 30% water change of chlorine water. Quoted from some book. I would say that figure, would depend on the water supply. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't chloramines lethal to fish :? {I read that somewhere too}
[quote:d084c09145]The problem with breeding fish in a particular type of water, means that when you sell them, other people have to try to mimick your water. I believe its better to let fish adjust to the local water supply, saves a lot of headaches and calculations, and believe me they do adjust. [/quote:d084c09145]
People buffer water for different reasons,
One reason is that I have had to buffer my water to keep a particular species of fry alive. Alot of people use some sort of buffer, calcium carb as substract or media..... I use buffers more as a just in case, keep the water stable & the home brew is cheap too. All ingredients easily obtained from the supermarket.
A certain area of brissie has very soft water so to keep Africans & the like they have to buffer.
My ph dosent change much at all, all I am doing is raising the gh & kh of my water, therefore making it more stable. When I used to be fussy about testing water, I noticed the gh & kh sometimes varied out of the water supply.

But hey, this is works well for me & I know what Theo does works well for him too. Go figure  :lol: The joys of fish keeping  :roll:  

ps; Do I have to be naked :?:

Frenchy :D

[DeagonTheo]

Frenchy, you're right about buffers, but I find that some Calcium Carbonate mixed in with the gravel does just as well, and if you dont use gravel, a nylon bag with some coral or a bag with calcium carbonate, will suffice.

But hey, if you want to use the salts etc, thats okay too, I've got all the stuff and use it sometimes if I need some water in a hurry, or theres a Ph crash.

To any newbies out there, read all the books and get info off the net, it will give you a better understanding of the hobbie and water conditions, but remember they are just guides, fish are fairly tollerant and can stand a reasonably wide variety of conditions.

There are two things they absolutely cant tollerate, and thats Chlorine and sudden changes.

Theo

[gasnitro]

wether you age your water or not you should still use a nutrilizer.
Chloramine: This substance is sometimes used as a bactericide in municipal water supplies. It it poisonous to fish, but can be removed with many commercially available dechlorinating additives. Unlike chlorine, it will not evaporate from water by itself.

[mickvick]

This is direct form the BCC website:

"Water for home aquariums

Brisbane Water uses chloramine to disinfect water for drinking purposes. This is toxic to aquatic life.

You need to remove all traces of chloramine when using tap water in your aquarium. You can do this by:

boiling the water for 10 minutes and letting it cool to room temperature, or
ageing and exposing water to sunlight for at least two days, or
buying de-chlorination agents from aquarium shops"

Michael

[DeagonTheo]

The Council must have been reading my posts. :lol:
Theo

[ancalimon]

[quote:e404eab871="mickvick"]This is direct form the BCC website:

"boiling the water for 10 minutes and letting it cool to room temperature, or
ageing and exposing water to sunlight for at least two days, or
buying de-chlorination agents from aquarium shops"

Michael[/quote:e404eab871]

Theoretically, the chlorine and ammonia that forms chloramine will disassociate at a set rate for a given temperature and volume to surface area ratio.  The upshot being, the chlorine will separate from the ammonia into Cl2 molecules which can be liberated via "normal" aging techniques (ie/ agitating your water).  

Ammonia is a different beastie only because Brisbane Water (and the other council water treatment agencies) typically overdose with ammonia in order to ensure there is enough to bond with the Chlorine to form Chloramine.  So the actual amount could be unknown as the additional ammonia eventually ends up as a high nitrate reading.

There is some evidence (although it is sparse on the internet) to suggest that ammonia gas (which is injected into the water stream) can also be degassed from the water with time.

So what we have is three things.  
1. The time (and energy) needed to break the Chloramine bond.
2. The time (and energy) needed to offgas the Chlorine.
3. The time (and energy) needed to offgas the Ammonia.

In most cases from the evidence that we as fishkeepers have, is that really only 1 and 2 are the important factors as our filtration can deal with number 3.  

So to agree with Theo, yes, age your water.  Add energy (ie/ make it mobile via a pump or airstone).  Heat it as well as warmer water holds less gasses (and adds energy and makes it closer in temp to your aquariums).

caio
Graeme

[gasnitro]

My Advise would to use a good nutrilizer that covers Chlorine / chloramine
and heavy metals and for adding water with a temp a couple of degree different to tank is not an issue at 20-30% water change. personaly i would be looking at what is going wrong instead of blamming the water supply. if you are using a good nutrilizer, the one Ben sells is ok for Chlorine / chloramine as i used it for a long time i am presently trying a new product out that does heavey metals as well. just make sure you shake it good. and for white spot invest in a UV.

[DeagonTheo]

You know its funny, no matter how much proof or scientific evidence you can give some people, they are just not going to listen.

THE WORLD IS ROUND.

Just go and spend a heap on a UV sterilizer, why, if you do things properly in the first place, you will hardly ever see whitespot again.

Isn't it funny how whitespot always turns up after a water change or bringing in new fish. The chances of getting whitespot in any other way are virtually zero(thats if you are spending a little bit of time looking after your tanks).

Hm, I wonder whats cheaper, a 200 litre drum or a UV Sterilizer.

Theo

[mjscookie]

Theo, I just can't understand how enough energy is provided to break the chemical bonds. What form is the chlorine in? Cl2?

I'm not having a go, you have had great success and i'm willing to attempt it (cheaper !!!) but it's just the understanding? Why doen't ammonia/ammonim ions dissappear? We are heating the water and agitating it?


Mitch

[ashhhh]

[quote:9c5ce463fa="DeagonTheo"]

Hm, I wonder whats cheaper, a 200 litre drum or a UV Sterilizer.[/quote:9c5ce463fa]

the drum , and theres one going cheap, set-up and ready to go here http://www.qldcichlid.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5241 :)

[ancalimon]

[quote:37b8969ae5="mjscookie"]Theo, I just can't understand how enough energy is provided to break the chemical bonds. What form is the chlorine in? Cl2?

I'm not having a go, you have had great success and i'm willing to attempt it (cheaper !!!) but it's just the understanding? Why doen't ammonia/ammonim ions dissappear? We are heating the water and agitating it?


Mitch[/quote:37b8969ae5]

The bond between NH2 and Cl2 is relatively unstable, but the chemical NH2Cl will persist in water longer than just Cl2 or HOCl (Hypochlorite).  Hence it is used in the water treatment for potable water.  Also it has been found not to form nasty cancer causing chlorocarbons (like chloroform etc), other rather, to cause significantly less.

So the small amount of energy added by agitation will "crack" the bond between the NH2 and the Cl allowing the two chemicals to be dissolved into the water.

Now any gas dissolved into water will naturally diffuse out of the water if the concentration in the atmosphere is less than that in the water.  It's the exact same principle in getting O2 into the water and CO2 out of the water.  Except this time it is Cl2 and NH2.  Cl2 has a relatively short time (days) of persistence.  NH2 longer.

Personally I have been using a couple of 4' tanks (200 l each - although one temporarily is holding some rainbows) to age my water for a week minimum.  In each are a gravel filter (ie/ a filter filled with 3mm gravel and shell grit rather than filter wool or any other media) and a heater.  I haven't had an outbreak of any disease for about 6 years (last time was a white spot outbreak from not quarantining some siamensis) and before that about 5 years (velvet, I have never seen it before in my life and had several casualties in some blue eyes before I worked out what was happening....again, some new b/n introduced without quarantining).

caio
Graeme

[DeagonTheo]

I'm not going to say much more on this matter, and I'm not a chemist, but I've been keeping fish for a long long time, and in that time I've lost a lot of fish,and I've experimented a lot and learnt a lot. I cant in all honesty explain what happens to the Chlorine and Chloramine, but what I can tell you is, after about two days most of both are gone.

Graeme gave a pretty good explanation of what happens and I can back that up from experience. Me personally, I would only use a dechlorinator as a last resort.

There are two ways of doing things, the wrong way and the right way, unfortunately I cant force anybody to see the light, so its up to you to choose. Just remember some time in the future, when you lose a lot of fish after doing a water change with water straight from the tap, that all the info was here, you just chose the wrong path.

Theo

PS: I forgot, Chlorine and Ammonia are gasses, so the bond would be very volatile.

[Sigmaphile]

Theo,

Don't you get sick of this arguement.  :lol:
I envy your patience everytime this topic comes up.
Years and Years of experience mean nothing to some people.
I guess next time they lose a tank full of fish they may re-examine this topic and choose another path.

Just keep teaching the grasshoppers, master, and one day you will be rewarded. :bows head in gratitude:

[Thanes]

Just a side note a drastic change in diet can also bring on whitespot.
Cheers Brian.

[DeagonTheo]

Thanks Phil, we can only but try, though I am getting tired. :cry:
Theo