Buffers for lower pH

anyone want to share what types of buffers they use for lower pH?<
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>I have had some bad experiences with phosphate. doesnt seem stable and prompts algea blooms.<
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>Anyone keep fish at a pH below 7 without using a buffer? is it necessary?

[nemo1981]

my tap water is coming out just over 8ph,<
>i''m after some alternatives to the old ph down additive coz my cichlids like it, the
istlies don''t.<
>yeh so, same question really. Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>

[hareysfish]

mangrove roots and drift wood work well. hope it helps

[Sigmaphile]

Running "peat" in your filter, hang on, cannister or sump, will lower the pH. Just experiment with how much to use to lower it the amount you need campared to your tap water.<
>Not sure on which one to use though. Never used just know that it lowers pH. Commerial products like the expanding blocks may contain other unwanted ingredients.<
> Phil<
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>Beaudesert<
>debphil@ozemail.com.au<
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>&quot;I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.&quot;<
>

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>I agree with Scott, get the biggest pieces of driftwood/mangrove you can.<
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>Cheers, Doug

is this driftwood to lower the pH or buffer it Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 10/6/05 18:16<
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Do you mean Phosphoric acid for lowering PH. There are alternatives if thats what you mean. Hydrochloric acid will release small amounts of chlorine and hydrogen. The hydrogen is good for your fish, and the chlorine is negligable if you do it right, or you can add neutraliser AFTER if you want. Carefull with dosages, do some tests. It is trickier than Phosphoric. Ph will drop gradually at first, then all of a sudden. You want to find this point so you dont cross it. <
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>Pure vinegar is another alternative. Its effects can sometimes take time, as it uses your biological filter. Carbon dioxide is the main byproduct from this reaction in the aquarium. I have often wondered if thats all flourish excel is........<
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>You can do some research on these two and see what you think.<
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>Cheers.............<
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>   Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 10/6/05 19:50<
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I already use hydrochloric acid to drop the pH, and it does not release chlorine (Cl2) it releases cloride (Cl-).  And it does not add hydrogen(H2) either. It releases Hydrogen ions (H+) which react with water to create Hydronium ions (H30+). An acid is a solution containing hydronium ions. <
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>I use the phosphate to buffer the water, which means an equili
ium is created between hydrogen phosphate and dihydrogen phosphate to stabalise the pH. <
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>I am interested if anyone has any experience using Sulfate as a buffer to keep their pH stable.  Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 10/6/05 22:40<
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[nemo1981]

geez, makes me wish i''d paid more attention in chemistry..... Steven & Amy<
>Ipswich<
>Email: nemo19_81@hotmail.com<
>Our Photos<
>

Sometimes I wish I paid less attention in chem Nemo     <
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>Sorry, I dumbed it down due to the wording of the original post. You are mostly right. It does however release hydrogen.  In the form of ions. If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right. You arent adding it directly to the tank are you?    . Either that or your understanding of hydrogen differs from mine.......<
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>"I use the phosphate to buffer the water, which means an equili
ium is created between hydrogen phosphate and dihydrogen phosphate to stabilise the pH."<
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>   . Are you sure............Why then are you looking to add sulfate? Adding sulfate by they way will be a risky step. Its a little more toxic than ''phosphates'' I wouldnt do it in my tanks.  Consequently I wouldnt reccomend it to others. Just do what sigmaphile said. At least you wont go killing anything. The natural processes are for some reason usually the most stable IME. Therefore vinegar/peat are usually best buffers for acid, shell grit/limestone for alkaline. Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 11/6/05 23:41<
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Gecko, no offence meant, but maybe you got your chemistry classes mixed up with drama classes. <
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>You see ''Hydrogen ions'' ARE hydronium because Hydrogen ions cannot exist on their own, they react with water instantly, to create hydronium. When people say Hydrogen ions, they really mean hydronium ions.<
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>ie:  (H+) + H2O = H3O+<
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> Hence : HCL + H20 = H3O + (CL-)<
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>In simple terms: you cant have ACID without HYDRONIUM IONS<
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>And about the buffers; <
>ALL acid buffers ARE based on phosphate Or Sulfate, and all buffers operate on the principle of the common ion affect which involves the equili
ium of the acid and conjugate base.<
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>Are you trying to say that every single aquarium buffer is TOXIC to your fish?!<
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>back to school. <
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>  Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 11/6/05 21:54<
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Sorry Bobo, I dont want to clash with you, nor am I your educator. I will try to make this my last post on this thread. You dont have the full picture yet in my opinion Bobo. There is no need for drama classes. There are indeed other types of cations other than hydronium. Its just the one we use to measure acidity. Hydrogen exists in many forms not taught in chemistry school. An unrelated example: there is another form of hydrogen other than Orto and Para Hydrogen, which burns substatially faster than ortohydrogen. You would think they would teach people about something this important. But they dont.  You would never graduate if you had to learn all the relationships. You should also realise that research has yet to fully define the solvation of the hydronium ion in water. How can you possibly understand what science doesnt. Therefore I am always learning. Have been ever since I graduated 15 years ago. So I dont need to go back to school. I never left. I am not offended by your comments. I understand your frustration at me seemingly contradicting what you have been taught. I dont want to confuse things anymore, or put this thread off topic. So I will just say peat or vinegar will be your most stable solutions and leave it at that. We dont need to be at each other just because we dont agree.<
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>Cheers..........<
> Edited by: DayoftheGecko at: 11/6/05 23:39<
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Gecko, i am sorry for offending you, but i do not take kindly to comments which compromise my integrity.  You might not notice, but the things you said in your first post were patronising, not to mention incorrect.<
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>You say you dont want a clash, then you make a comment like this: "You dont have the full picture yet in my opinion Bobo." Either way, i dont think anyones opinion is relevant if they dont have their facts straight. <
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>"If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right."<
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>Definition: pH is the negative log of HYDRONIUM IONS. All of  sudden it doesnt seem so crazy that your water might actually contain hydronium... considering thats what your pH test kit measures...<
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>"You should also realise that research has yet to fully define the solvation of the hydronium ion in water."<
>"How can you possibly understand what science doesnt."<
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>We are talking about BASIC water chemistry here gecko. As much as science still has to discover, i am certain that it is an accepted FACT that acidic water contains H3O+. There is nothing complicated about it. <
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>"There are indeed other types of cations other than hydronium. Its just the one we use to measure acidity."<
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>Just about all other cations are metal ions. Good luck measuring your acidity with metal ions. <
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>So as offensive as i was with my childish comments about school, the fact still remains that the things you said were silly or wrong, and i dont mean to offend you by that. I beleive that water chemistry is an important aspect of fishkeeping, and only seek to ensure that other aquarists do not get the wrong idea about basic water chemistry, due to unsubstantiated comments.<
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> Edited by: oldmatebobo at: 11/6/05 23:46<
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Everything I have said in this thread is correct. Lets be clear on that. I would not give out mis-information as you are saying. If its basic water chemistry you need, I think other members would be more helpfull to you. Sadly, advanced is the only way I can see it.<
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>Cheers...........

"If you can prove you are getting ''hydronium'' as a result of the reaction, something is not right"<
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>That statement is blatantly incorrect. <
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>Perhaps the reason you see it as advanced is because you dont have a comprehensive knoledge of the basic concepts, which is undeniably shown by the quoted comment. <
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>Im not looking for help on basic chemistry. If anything, maybe i can teach you something. <
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>Anyway, as great as it sounds collecting 200kg of mangrove roots, throwing them in a bathtub full of water and waiting a month before i can do a water change, i might just stick to hydrochloric acid. <
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>There has to be someone on this forum that keeps fish at a low pH like discus or tetras or something. I just want to know what they use to buffer their water. I have found that phosphate buffers feed algea blooms. <
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